By what right does the US have to bomb the hell out of seven countries in obvious acts of war, without even declaring war?
Such actions are illegal, immoral, unconstitutional, hypocritical, and downright stupid. The latter because we make more enemies than we kill in the process.
Who would not be radicalized by seeing their son or daughter blown to smithereens by a US drone?
The hypocrisy alone is amazing. Warmonger-in-chief, senator John McCain said Russia Meddling in US Elections is a “Form of Warfare”.
Here’s reality: McCain has Blood on his Hands for his interference in Ukraine.
McCain labeled Putin “a thug,” “a murderer” and “a killer.”
Using McCain’s own logic, the same label ought to be applied to Trump, Obama, Bush, Hillary, and of course McCain himself.
Trump is talking with Putin. I believe sanctions will be removed. That is a positive action and one Hillary would not have taken.
Small Price = Killed
Mainstream media sat in silence for 8 years when Obama issued life or death sentences on innocent civilians. Now the media moans about Trump.
I wish the war-monger hypocrites would place themselves in other people’s shoes, just once. If their son or daughter was killed by a drone, or their house blown to smithereens, they would not consider it a “small price” to pay for US security.
Note that the media called it “collateral damage” when an Obama drone killed a 12-year old boy in Yemen. When Trump-fired drone killed an 8-year old girl in Yemen, the media took a closer look.
Here’s the real story:
Obama Killed a 16-Year-Old American in Yemen. Trump Just Killed His 8-Year-Old Sister.
Two weeks after the killing of Awlaki, a separate CIA drone strike in Yemen killed his 16-year-old American-born son, Abdulrahman, along with the boy’s 17-year-old cousin and several other innocent Yemenis. The U.S. eventually claimed that the boy was not their target but merely “collateral damage.” Abdulrahman’s grief-stricken grandfather, Nasser al-Awlaki, urged the Washington Post “to visit a Facebook memorial page for Abdulrahman,” which explained: “Look at his pictures, his friends, and his hobbies. His Facebook page shows a typical kid.”
US Sides with Saudi Arabia Over Yemen
Saudi Arabia provoked Yemen, then the US backed Saudi Arabia. Why?
Arguably it would have made as much sense to back Yemen.
It was Saudi nationals, not Iranians, not Iraqis, behind 911. Instead of going to war with Saudi Arabia, we blew up Iraq.
ISIS a US Creation
For all the finger-pointing at Russia for the carnage in Syria, the mess is mostly attributable to the US which directly sponsored the carnage by backing allegedly “moderate” Al Qaeda terrorists.
Those terrorists teamed up with ISIS and gave US weapons to them.
Let’s not forget that ISIS is a US creation. Note that former UK prime minister Tony Blair Admitted ISIS is a US/UK Creation.
President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney are to blame. But President Obama continued their policies as has Trump. Hillary would have done the same, if not more, had she been elected.
Where the hell are the protests?
There aren’t any, and there won’t be any, because media sits in silence and US citizens sit in cocoons, unaware of anything that happens outside the US.
Trump Saber Rattling Iran
Trump is now saber rattling Iran. I suspect Hillary would have done the same thing. There has not been a war Hillary did not support, with Congress going along.
In a totally disgusting Stance on War and Peace, House Speak Paul Ryan said he would engage Iran militarily, in advance.
His rationale: “[Iran] is the world’s largest sponsor of terrorism. They’ve dedicated themselves to wiping an entire country off the map.“
It’s a blatant lie, which Republicans often repeat.
For discussion of what Iran really said, please see Peace Must Be Stopped At Any Cost; Lies and Hypocrisy on Iran.
Here’s the short version: It was translation error.
Uncommon Sense From Patrick Buchanan
Patrick J. Buchanan talks of The Coming Clash With Iran.
Please read that article and again if it does not immediately ring a bell.
Iran is not in violation of anything. It’s another “Gulf of Tonkin” incident, Saudi style, with the US siding with the nation directly sending the most money to ISIS.
War Must Go On
The warmongers insist war must go on. If we don’t have an enemy, we need to create one to ensure perpetual war.
There is no US outrage over this because no US citizens have been recently killed. US citizens do not give a damn about “collateral damage”, no matter how severe, outside the US.
Policy dictates we keep bombing the hell out of the world, making enemies where they do not exist, until blowback occurs. Following blowback, the public rallies around the war.
Mike “Mish” Shedlock
The Saudis dictate our policy against Iran..that is the unspoken truth.
In WW@ Coventry in the UK was bombed by the Nazis and flattened. How many died – about 1000. Obamas 26,000 ‘sophisticated’ guided bombs are causing mayhem and guaranteed deaths at every strike. There will be blowback.
Just like Nobel Peace Prize winner Obama stopped Bush’s policy and closed GITMO. Oh, wait.
Name ANY Democrat who even notices this about Trump. Unless it is an issue that can be used for propaganda the left doesn’t care.
I’m not sure if California seceded they wouldn’t be bombing Yemen.
Idaho Doug said:
I wish that we could discuss policies on their merits rather than their party affiliation. Politicians love to control us with that tactic.
Stuki Moi said:
+ a lot.
Once public indoctrination has dumbed down the population sufficiently that they belive a football game is an apt metaphor for anything other than a football game, they’re quite easy pickings for those wishing to set them up against eachother for their self imposed rulers’ amusement and profit.
Idahoe Doug, I wholeheartedly agree with you!
BillyBob Texas said:
My daddy dropped load after load after load of bombs on German cities in late ’44 and ’45.
Gen Curt LeMay FIRE-bombed Japanese cities full of wood and paper houses. Killed WAY more than the atomic bombs did……
War is hell – especially if you’re on the losing side……
“War is a racket.” Maj. General Smedley Butler
I’m with Mish and Butler. To Hell with War!
Maybe if DJT had a Nobel Peace Prize, things would be different.
Stuki Moi said:
He hasn’t had time to dronebomb enough kids to qualify for that prize yet. No doubt he’ll give it his best shot, though, as he’s nothing if not vain.
Regardless of how you may feel about ‘drone policy’, it’s not going to “go away”, but instead expand around the globe. 600 years ago archery was considered an undignified, cowardly form of warfare, and all nations adopted it. 100 years ago the entire world was ‘outraged’ by a new, dastardly thing called “submarine warfare”.
Drone warfare will thrive because it is a relatively low-cost, stealthy, has inherent deniability, and does not put a pilot’s life at risk. No nation is going to walk away from those benefits.
Stuki Moi said:
The big positive regarding drone warfare, is that the technology is evolving quickly enough that in not too long it may become a bit of an equal opportunity way of fighting wars. Similar to how, as you mentioned, archery, but particularly firearms, for a brief but glorious period, allowed regular citizens the opportunity to keep their “rulers” in check.
Drones, distributed arms manufacturing, pervasive networking and the like, may, if we’re lucky, bring back such a situation yet again. Where the parents of every kid, anywhere on earth, kan protect their own kids’ security with drones, to no lesser extent than Trump and Obama can currently protect theirs. And where anyone can use drones to enforce their own “rule of law” just as effectively as the two above mentioned and those who fund them, currently can enforce theirs.
Good for you Mish. It’s a shame more Americans aren’t conscious of what their country is doing.
Jump against Trump is very catchy.
i like it.
If not drones – what? Until someone can answer that – carry on droning
Attitudes like yours ensure more war
What if it was your kid who dies and I reasoned like you – I don’t give a fuck!
Idiotic attitudes like your are the cause of the problem
Donald Sugg said:
The only people that should go to war are the exact individuals who declare war. Imagine if war meant the leader of one country had to fight the leader of the other to the death and that was the end of it. If either country wanted another war, the new leader would fight to the death and so on. Two results, either we would cleanse the gene pool of these murderous old fucks, or more likely they would not have the courage to fight and some other solution would be found. Sending innocent youth to kill innocent youth should be punishable by death in any civilized society.
It used to be that way, more or less. Early middle ages. Democracy f’d that all up.
Stuki Moi said:
What’s the objective Charlie?
You want peace in the world then you lock every leader of every tribe and nation in a room until they agree on borders, until they agree to only arm to a degree needed to maintain domestic order, creating a supranational force larger than any single nation and only entitled to intervene when one nation illegally crosses the border of another, and then only to return the event to the previous reality. Then you cross your fingers.
Only bread and water and the attention of the entire planet.
Should take a week or two.
Here is your answer Charlie: How about we just mind our own f-ing business?
Agreed. But we all know after the next terrorist attack, the American public will demand their leader do something. Trump has made defeating radical Islam the cornerstone of his foreign policy. He will use drone strikes and special forces even more liberally than Obama. At least it won’t seem so hypocritical when he does it, but the civilians will be just as dead.
For the really “messy” operations, I think he wants to use Putin’s firepower.
Jon Sellers said:
Radical Islam is a thought pattern. It is not something that can be defeated.
Stuki Moi said:
“Radical Islam is a thought pattern. It is not something that can be defeated.”
And most certainly not by barren soldier factories….
Which part is the irrevocable thought pattern? The caliphate? Murder? Islam?
I wonder if they said the same of Nazism?
One thing is for certain, if radical Islam is to be defeated, it will need to be defeated by Muslims, because if Muslims leave it to the rest of the world to clean this up, they will ALL find themselves radical Muslims. Nobody was too terribly concerned about figuring our which Germans were Nazis and who were not. And far too many Muslims, while denouncing terror, will also excuse or defend it. That can’t happen.
Yes, humans have done EXCELLENT at that for thousands of years….minding their own business.
Not until Twitter did we start having these problems.
But I am trying to decide if it is better to be droned or hacked to death like the tutsis and the hutus did each other.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m definitely against interventionism, but then again it’s not my responsibility to decide what is and what isn’t in our direct interest. Because “intelligence” is such a valuable part of our defense systems, we are never given all the facts so that we could truly know. We are left to simply decide who is lying and who is not. And while the internet can provide a lot of information, we still have no way of verifying it. Instead, we find ourselves gravitating to sites that feed our preexisting biases. If we want to see how that works, simply look at the crazies out there protesting everything about Trump. They no longer care about credibility, they have simply become a single minded mob with one intent above all others…depose Trump.
I fear we are all losing credibility with ourselves, becoming nattering nabobs like guinea hens raising hell at any noise at all.
Stuki Moi said:
“Not until Twitter did we start having these problems.
But I am trying to decide if it is better to be droned or hacked to death like the tutsis and the hutus did each other.”
Rwanda had largely the equivalent of Twitter, mediated via radio waves, pre genocide.
More generally, pre mass communication of the “few speakers, lots of listeners” kind, “our” problems really were smaller. The hope is that the internet, which at it’s core encourages many to may communication, can bring us back from the disasters that are Rwanda and the past 5 decades’ US.
“The hope is that the internet, which at it’s core encourages many to may communication, can bring us back from the disasters”
You mean they way they use it to organize the multitudes of leftist protests and riots? The way it is used to create over 12000 death threats on Trump, even going so far as to suggest it graphically on magazine covers? Peaceful Utopia at hand?
don’t think so
Stuki Moi said:
As long as Trump can threaten to kill someone, the greater the opportunity for others to return the favor, the better. Ditto, honestly, regarding Trump’s ability to actually see the threat through, whether by drone or other means.
Peace is nothing but a false, pagan God, convenient for the ruling elites. As long as their captive peons can be indoctrinated to only play by rules rigged to favor the rulers, keeping them in indentured servitude is cheap, safe and easy. Antebellum plantations were quite peaceful in between slave uprisings. Yet only during uprisings did they provide even the remotest possibility of ever becoming a place with enough freedom and justice to render them preferable to even outright nuclear anhilation.
Blow back? Just you wait until, very soon, terrorists, anarchists and assorted nut jobs refine their drone deploying skills.
But, sadly, the MIC will profit either way.
American voters are an evil bunch in enabling their elected officials to continue the death and destruction.
Root Hog Or Die said:
Hey Professor, you’ve made the most salient point in this whole discussion. Voters are the evils ones here, they enable the wicked machinery to work. If they could ever pull their heads out of their asses and away from their iPhones and TV’s long enough to take a hard honest look, the world would be a totally different place. But that’s never going to happen in my lifetime or anyone else’s. Most of us have critical thinking skills, we just never use them. The sooner our species goes extinct, the better.
MISH, EXCELLENT ANALYSIS…IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR PEOPLE TO GRASP THE CONCEPT THAT OUR GOVERNMENT AND OUR PRESIDENTS CREATED THE TERRORISM.
Though I will agree with you on posting the above images of children as they promote nothing, instead they ask for US desistment.
You have to be very careful with how you present these topics Mish. Between the last post and this you presented the happy migrant child whose migrant father joins her in the US, and then what happens to those abroad at the hands of the US. Very careful Mish, it sends different messages to different people, especially when combined, what you intend to project being completely besides the point.
No argument, Mish, our drone policy is totally immoral and should horrify any sensible person.
Our entire foreign policy is haywire.
CzarChasm Reigns said:
Agreed: “our drone policy is totally immoral and should horrify any sensible person.” —pyrrhus
Right on Mish
If we stop drone strikes against terrorists, blow up Isreal, allow all the Muslims into the US that want to come and basically bend over and give them everything they could possilbly ever want, they would still want to kill us all and behead us if they had the time. Saying this stuff pisses them off is ridiculous. They HATE us and always will no matter what we do. They cannot even get along with themselves, thats why secular dictatorships are the only way to keep them under control. Twenty five percent of muslims believe that 911 was a good thing and the majority of muslims want to live in an intolerant theocratic state based on Shirah law. War sucks and innocent people are killed. Drone strikes against vetted terrorists will have collateral damage. Better over there than my children. Think and say what you want ,drone strikes are justified assuming the intelligence is accurate. Big assumption I get it.
As far as Iran, they are giving us the middle finger with their missile launches a deliberate provocation. I believe our response is just positioning and tough rhetoric I can’t see DJT being dumb enough to engage in a war with them. Why do you think aholes like McCain et al are so dead set on engaging in a war with Iran? I don’t agree with them but I wonder why, I have a hard time believing its just the military industrial complex pressure. I don’t get it.
Understanding McCain on Iran is like trying to understand some kind of combo of Israel and/or Saudi on Iran, geo-strategic and to prove a point. Where there is some kind of momentum he is there to represent it.
Still figuring what the new admin. approach is. Seems stabilise for now… with Iran looks like they picked up the old script but not sure up to anything except maintain tensions. They will be looking at Syria and Iraq regarding Russia and Iran influence/negotiation. No straightforward way to keep Iraq and Syria as countries in current form.
Look back into history. “They” the perceived enemy hate us for a reason. Netanyahu and Saudi Arabia are pushing us into war with Iran. How I wish Herzog would have won the election in Israel, he would not be wanting war with Iran. Trump is an immoral ego maniac, who has no idea how to be a President and neither did Obama, they both were and are owned by outside forces called globalists and their influence is heavy and severe. No wonder Iran is angry with Trump, Iran has done nothing to provoke war. Iran in fact has been fighting ISIS, which Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama promoted as being “rebels”. Assad was never a threat . This warmongering has got to stop.
By supporting sunni-ISIS through sunni-FSA (Free Syrian Army) USA has effectively been supporting GENOCIDE of shias so at least I understand why shia-Iran is pissed off by USA.
Assad and most of the government of Syria are alawites which is a branch of shias.
Assad has been protective of christians and Yazidis and other minorities in Syria whereas ISIS and FSA have been slaughtering alawites, christians and yazidis.
In my opinion CIA likely has many people who are guilty of war crimes and guilty of supporting GENOCIDE of alawites, christians and yazidis by ISIS in Syria by being complicit in arming and funding ISIS through FSA and through Qatar and Saudi Arabia.
The deal Obama made with Iran was stupid and incompetent and should have never been made but if Trump let’s Saudi Arabia to talk himself into attacking Iran to fulfill Saudi dreams of GENOCIDE of shias then Trump is a total idiot.
BTW the warmongers are the reason we need term limits. What happened to that draining the swamp talk
Term limits and campaign finance reform. In the estimation of some, they are one and the same thing.
“Every government in the world is a minority government”
~ Rep. Wayne Hays (D-OH)
Larry P said:
I travel and have contact with people from may different countries. The US is now looked at as being the “Evil Empire” of the world. But the US media gives no coverage of the US drone program or the US Special Forces programs and the sleeping public in the US all think the US is a benevolent country doing so much good in the world.
The truth is that most of the world hates the US, and rightfully so. The US rapes and pillages, when they want and where they want, but especially when it helps the US Western Oil Empire obtain, maintain or retain their oil supplies.
For the past 25 years, the US has been trying to win complete control of the world’s largest remaining oil reserves – Iraq, plus the very large gas reserves in the “stan” countries and the many undeveloped oil regions of Africa.
The strategy was set up brilliantly and has been played our almost perfectly!
Prior to the US Iraq invasions, the Iraq oil resources were all under contract with Russia / China. And prior to Afghanistan, their ‘old’ government would not allow pipelines across their country.
Few people understand that Iraq cancelled all oil contracts after the new government was installed, and then signed new contracts with the Western Oil Empire companies to divide up the spoils of the war.
And Afghanistan was a complete success, as gas is now flowing from the fields controlled by the western oil empire in the stan countries, through new pipelines that were built across Afghanistan, to markets in India and the gulf ports. Plus many other African oil reserves have now been consolidated as a result of various small regional conflicts that have supported oil interests and were assisted by US forces or drone operations .
But one problem still remains – while the Western Oil Empire controls all the oil in Iraq, they still can not fully liquidate the Trillions of Dollars while Iran retains so much influence over the region.
So, after 25 years, the final strategy comes to a head! It is time to continue our drone assassination program in the Middle East and Africa, to maintain control over the oil and gas resources, while we build a new “war” case against Iran, that will allow us to eventually obtain full control over the Iraq oil and possibly even the Iranian oil.
Life is good for the Western Oil Companies and the future looks bright. Thanks to the cooperation of some powerful backers of both US political parties, and the “sleeping public of the USA”, the large oil corporations are able to get what the want, when the want it, all bought, fought and paid for by the US taxpayer…
Warren Miller said:
Your comments are largely outdated, Larry P. The technology for extracting shale oil via fracking terrifies Saudi Arabia because it makes the U.S. self-sufficient energy-wise. Yet Lefties and eco-crazies want to stop the fracking. They can’t have it both ways: If fracking goes away, then our dependence on the Saudis returns.
If you think “Life is good for the Western Oil Companies,” you haven’t talked to any senior executives in one of them.
Larry P said:
Warren – you have a good point on the oil shale fracking. However, have you ever looked at the “life” of Fracked wells? The half-life is 2-3 years. After a few years, the drillers can’t drill enough new holes to keep production going.
Fracking is good contingency planning for a few years of self dependence, or in a world where efficiency is pushed to maximum. It also gives the US leverage over pricing.
Stuki Moi said:
Like all else in life, there is no “fracking” vs “no fracking.” Instead, it’s continuums. The cost of recovering oil from tight formations has been dropping steadily. Once oil spiked to $100+/barrel, many shales became viable. Which fed on itself, as all the money poured into that business, sped up technological developments that had been ongoing for a long time.
And is still ongoing. It’s not like “fracking” is some sort of monolithic thingy that fell out of the sky fully developed once and for all. Instead, an operator can recover more oil for a given cost from a frack well now, than he could even a few years ago. Iow,, technological developments are making ever more oil available at any given cost, constantly pushing back the time at which depletion again reaches a level requiring higher prices still, for extraction to remain profitable.
Heck, some years from now, it may be profitable to loop back and extract even more oil from frack wells that are now abandoned due to no longer being worth producing from. Assuming there is anything at all, other than hype, to the so callled new AI/robotics age, downwell robots and sensors allowing for extremely individualized and productive treatment of every single wellbore, would seem at least as plausible as the much ballyhooed self driving cars.
Data conflicts with your opinion, Larry. The US was importing more oil from Iraq in 1999 and other years before the invasion than it does now:
I like how Mish equates DJT to the same level as Obama and Bush when it comes to drones. He has only been in office a couple of weeks. You do not turn an ocean liner around on a dime. Let’s see where we are in 6 months or a year.
Mish is showing a level of hysteria that is similar to what we are seeing daily from the left
naivety and wishful thinking. The bombs must drop, don’t you know? It’s conservative economics – can’t let those jobs disappear. Too many on the dole.
It’s hysteria to point out what has history has shown to be true?
“It was Saudi nationals, not Iranians, not Iraqis behind 911. Instead of going to war with Saudi Arabia, we blew up Iraq.”
For over four decades, oil money from Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf oil states has been used to purchase US arms and influence. Arm sales to Saudi Arabia come with training. With training comes military ties, foreign policy and even intelligence ties. Saudi and Gulf state money has found its way into influential think tanks including the Brookings Institution, the Atlantic Council, the Middle East Institute and the Georgetown Center for Strategic and International Studies. And these Gulf states have all been donating oil money to UK and US universities.
It would seem that Saudi Arabia, with other Gulf oil states as partners, own a good part of the CIA now. Even if they don’t control US, they have certainly influenced ‘our’ war decisions especially in Serbia and Syria. Given their treatment of women, including the 2002 incident where Saudi religious police beat schoolgirls fleeing from a burning building because they didn’t take their head coverings with them, there is no moral justification for training their soldiers, much less conducting war for or with them.
As long as the USG arms and trains the Saudis, it can make no truthful claim about bringing freedom to the world nor vilifying leaders like Saddam, Gadaffi, Yanokovich, or Putin – and especially not Bashar Assad whose wife has more brains than any US president.
You are bashing your head against a wall, Mish. The “don’t care” attitude won’t change til there is a catastrophe involving Americans. Even then it will start a call to retaliate,thus cycling the war rhetoric up every time to a crescendo
Root Hog Or Die said:
And when that “catastrophe” does happen, you can bet your life it will be a false flag event, created, orchestrated, and carried out by the US of A. Unfortunately false flag operations are allowed by the Geneva Convention and sucker Americans fall for them every single time. False flag events are the best way to get Americans thinking emotionally instead of rationally and they only vote to go to war when they are thinking emotionally. “Remember the Maine!” “Remember the Lusitania!” “Remember Pearl Harbor” Etcetera ad nauseum.
Excellent blog, Mish, all of it, even better than usual. Keep it up. I can only hope The Donald reads your blog.
On a trip to the US a few years ago i came across a little shop in Camel California that sold model Aeroplanes. i went in for a browse and admired the model of Chuck Jeager’s plane signed by the great man. Next to it was the Enola Gay, signed by the living crew members. made my blood run cold. how can celebrating the deaths of 500,000 + people be commemorated by a ********* signed replica of the plane that dropped the bomb?
Unfortunately Americans are to fond of glorifying war without understanding the political manipulations that lead to it. Hardly any of our taught history is actually fact but what the hell drop another bomb and then act shocked when there is blowback.
I had an uncle who worked for 10+years in Iraq building a communications network. Saddam was president and he loved the country and the people. They thought Saddam was a prick but they got on with their lives, raising their kids and running their businesses. They admired the UK and the US, this was during the war with Iran. ( i still have some of the photos he took off the Iranian Air Force bombing the Basra oil fields)
What do you think they think of us now? Now that they have been liberated? Can you blame them?
If I were them, and if I were me, which I am, I would think the US government has been run by a bunch of idiots for the past 25 years.
I think you meant Carmel CA. There is no Camel CA.
As for Enola Gay, are you suggesting it would have been better to have a land invasion of Japan by US troops with fighting door-to-door and many more casualties on both sides, than the 2 bombs that quickly ended the carnage, and the casualties were only on the side that intentionally started the war? I just want to be sure what your position is on that, Steve.
May I suggest doing some research? The Japanese had already understood they were not winning the war, and initial moves suing for peace were in process. The reason for dropping the bombs was “well, we’ve got them, let’s see what happens”. Despite the powers-that-be knowing full well that such a course of action was just not necessary.
I have done plenty of research which tells me your opinion is nonsense, Fingal. If you persist, then show me the evidence.
Here are 4 links just for starters:
This really something I haven’t looked at for many years, but a search provides a lot of info very quickly.
Thank you whoever supplied the links to articles about the A-bombs not being needed. I read them all and have changed my opinion. I also agree with Stuki’s comment below.
“War is the ultimate failure of diplomacy”.
More than happy to supply the links – I forgot to put my name on my last post. Ahem. It is always a delight to discourse with an open-minded, critical thinking individual! I agree wholeheartedly with Stuki’s comment re war being the ultimate failure of diplomacy. Which, regrettably, does not seem to bode too well for our future…..
Stuki Moi said:
Japan would have been highly unlikely to unconditionally surrender absent the threat, or perhaps excuse, of the enemy having a Super Bomb. At the very least, there would have been breakaway factions of the military that would not have accepted the surrender. The Bomb was thus at a minimum very convenient for those who you, probably correctly, claim “already understood they were not winning the war.”
Of course, if America was not so insistent on the surrender being unconditional, hence maximally humiliating and degrading, there could very well have been a whole slew of negotiated outcomes that did not involve annihilating civilians by the hundreds of thousands. At a time like that, it may have been very much preferable to have an “Art of the Deal” President, instead of the more rigid ideologues that ran the show back then.
America’s a bloodthirsty nation. I’m not proud of that. The reason for it? Well, many of our kids are raised on blood and gore. Turn on the TV or go visit your local 1st run theater and look at the crap Hollywood is producing. Even the Saturday morning cartoons are violent. We’re raised on it. Our violent crime rate is off the charts compared to all other industrialized nations.
Now, to add fuel to the fire, our country has never been attacked (in terms of war) and we’ve never had to fear an invasion from another hostile nation, nor have our citizens ever had to survive the trials of war by digging up tree roots and boiling them for dinner to stay alive.
Does anybody understand what the common European had to tolerate in WW2?
Imagine the fear in the minds of the average Iraqi family when US missiles started taking out Baghdad in 2003.
I contend if war came to America we’d be much more hesitant afterwards to throw our weight around in mostly defenseless foreign countries.
Warren Miller said:
If you understood history, you would understand that bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki SAVED LIVES compared to the lives that would have been lost had the the U.S. had to invade Japan. It was a Hobson’s Choice, but Truman made the right call.
I didn’t even mention Hiroshima. You brought it up. That wasn’t even a part of my argument that you failed to address.
But the old argument that by dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved more lives than the numbers of innocent civilians we maimed and killed is hogwash. We had Japan surrounded with our naval fleets and cut off all supplies to their people. It’s an island after all. Japan was like a boxer in the 10th round with blood oozing from cuts under both eyes unable to see and bouncing off the ropes, Effectively it was already a defeated nation when we used the atomic option.
To the victor go the spoils. And the history books are authored by the victors.
Trump’s been in office a whole 2 weeks. The man has truly given us our money’s worth in that short time. Wait…he’s not even taking a salary. He’s working for free. I forgot.
Look, we’ve been bombing ME nations since 2001. And it’s all been sanctioned by Congress.
Trump is a President, not a King. He can’t issue an EO to stop all US bombings in the ME.
It’s going to take some time for him to clean up the mess created by the last 2 POTUS. He had the balls to tell the world on the campaign trail that invading Iraq was a colossal fiasco. How many other GOP’er candidates did that?
Be patient. Give the man a chance to figure out a way to gradually extricate ourselves from a very volatile situation that he had no hand in creating.
Good God. He’s only been President 2 weeks. Chill out.
He’s also the Commander in Chief.
He could easily say “No more drones until we figure out what the hell’s going on!”
But the CIA doesn’t take orders from him – and they control a lot of drone joy-sticks.
Just listen to this fascinating interview with ex-CIA analyst Ray McGovern detail the duplicity of the US gov.
What an American hero!
Part 1. http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/90796
Part 2. http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/90798
Press the red button to listen.
Trump is a President, not a King. He can’t issue an EO to stop all US bombings in the ME.
Are you fucking crazy?
Of course he can.
In fact, no one else can
I agree fully with you on this. Unfortunately the deep state wants war or at least the status quo. I think Trumps attention is mostly on domestic policy, so I foresee little change in our foreign policy in the Middle East. In fact it may ramp up very soon.
Yes, he stated clearly he would continue the ‘war on terror’ during his campaign. So I only hope that the rest will be tamed down, if not resolved. Too much open, real possibility of catastrophic escalation somehow, not good.
Trump could stop all bombing by USA with one order if he wanted to.
I hope Trump will not be as trigger-happy as Obama was when it comes to bombing people.
I can not see a situation where all bombing will be stopped before ISIS and Al-Qaida have been defeated.
Unless we assume the president knows all the answers to all the questions, we must assume that he must either err in the favor of our potential enemies or his own people.
Lest we forget, Bush ran on an anti-war platform until 9-11 and then was accused of being ignorant, inept and complicit. Obama was able to pursue his agenda because he knew that the media and democrats would still support him no matter how heinous a terror attack might be, as it will be shunted off as Bush’s fault….HE alienated the Muslims, and Obama was only trying to clean it up.
WE KNOW THIS IS TRUE.
We also know that ANY terror attack at this point will be immediately be blamed on Trump….he instigated it with his temporary travel ban…right?
Trump MUST appear strong on these issues knowing he will be blamed. He has PROMISED to kick ISIS’s ass. If they pull off a successful attack now, the left will impeach him for instigating the terror attacks.
And I’m having difficulty with the notion of a moral war. We have never had a war that didn’t have untold numbers of innocent victims, and I’m not sure that the dead are all that picky as to means,,,unless of course undue suffering was involved. The question ultimately is how much we value LIFE…not our lives, but ANY life. We are pretty damned casual with the unborn, so remote droning doesn’t seem quite so alien. Life has always been pretty low in value until politics become involved and can be used a a sales tool. Currently, I would suggest that the most important life in existence today is our OWN as we are completely self obsessed, and I would go so far as to suggest that many (if not most) current “values” are more about how they define ourselves than what they actually do for others. Look at the war on poverty for a clue. Progressives are more than pleased to exercise generosity on other’s behalf. Nothing makes them feel more smug than taking one person’t wealth and giving to anther “needy” person.
If many posters are correct and all of this has been about oil, then it is likely safe to assume that most people don’t care or don’t want to know. They like their lifestyles…even the progressives.
Trump never ran on a platform of stopping all bombings in his first 100 days, let alone in his 2 weeks. And it would be totally impractical from a political point of view for him to do so. He’d get incredible blow back from Congress which would further tarnish any efforts on his part to build consensus with Congress to get things accomplished.
Trump attacked Bush for invading Iraq during his campaign. No other republican candidate went there because they realized it would hurt them politically.
Trump has rocked more political boats in his first 2 weeks than any other President in my lifetime. But even Trump knows that he has limits to what he is able to do and maintain any semblance of cooperation with his congressional counterpart.
God almighty. Give the man the credit he is due and stop bashing him. He’s only been in office for 2 stinkin’ weeks.
Trump being in office only should not be an excuse. Trump and the administration needs to reminded daily we who voted for him want out of the ME. End our relations with both Israel and Saudi Arabia. Cancel all military contracts. No more F 35s for Israel and no tanks for SA. Islamic terrorism exist from Africa to the Philippines. Are we going to drone all these countries. Enough!
As Mish states the continued use of drones is immoral
Israel should be supported but supporting Saudi Arabia while they export extremist islam and support sunni-supremacism and support sunni terrorists like ISIS and Al-Qaida is IRRESPONSIBLE policy from USA.
Things may have taken a turn for the worse.
Oh shit :-((
“Report: Elliott Abrams Will Be Deputy Secretary of State”
What were Obama’s policies in Trump’s banned countries?!
Truth seeker said:
Mish here u go again with your criticism of a specific aspect of our military’s foreign policy and as for as I know u may b right. Several weeks ago you criticized Trump’s trade ideas saying a trade war was getting started and I agreed with you for the most part. But when I ask you what u would do to address the trade deficit with China alone at 1 Billion a day-twice I ask u this question I get no answer. With trillions of dollars owned by China, Japan, and the rest of the world they will soon b able to control a majority of American assets-bonds, equities, real estate. Your criticisms r well founded but u never offer any real solutions. So what would u do to help solve all these messy complex problems in the Middle East and the rest of the world? It sounds like to me you would simply shut down all our military bases around the world, bring home all the troops let Russia and China carve up the Middle East oil reserves, tell Israel they r on their own, then go to Central Park and sing along with John Lennon’s “All we are saying is just give peace a chance,” I have been lead to believe that that’s what a libertarian is an “Ostrich” same as isolationist.
I have given my solution at least 100 times.
I support free trade regardless of what any other country does.
If they want to subsidize us consumers we should all be grateful.
In regards to defense, the US cannot afford to be the world’s policeman, nor should we try even if we could afford it.
History proves I am correct. Your problem is you will not see the obvious, not that I refuse to give answers.
That is a simplistic way of looking at trade.
The chinese are wanting to kill all manufacturing in USA and Europe and bring it to China in order to get chinese jobs and money and keep the communists in power in China while chinese are just consumers and let incompetent communists rule them.
The problem with the free trade at any cost idea is that the current banking system is enabling consumer demand that is totally fake thereby letting US and European companies eat their cake and still have their cake.
With well paying jobs being destroyed by offshoring production (and by bringing in millions low wage workers through illegal immigration and through badly abused wage-slave system called H-1B-visa which both take jobs away from americans and lower wages) the consumer demand should have crashed in USA, The price of college and university should have crashed in the USA (because well paying jobs are disappearing) and the amount of cushy jobs government and states have should have crashed in the USA (because tax revenue is insufficient to pay for everything and because Federal government has 20 TRILLION dollars in debt meaning 20,000 BILLION dollars in debt)but consumer demand has been kept up by continued debt increases in mortgages and the following real estate bubble and cash-out refinancings and reverse-mortgages and price of college and university have been kept up by government guarantees on the loans and student loans being undischargeable even in bankruptcy and the amount of cushy jobs has been kept up by US government loaning 500+ billion dollars every year and now reaching 20 Trillion dollars under Obama and state budgets that are fantasy because retirement benefits that have been promised can not be paid with current funding.
The current system is totally unsustainable and the offshoring of jobs has to be stopped and the lowering of wages and making americans un-employed through illegal immigration and H-1B’s has to be stopped.
As much manufacturing as possible has to be returned to USA and Europe and the current zero interrest rate policies have to be stopped because they are enabling huge malinvestments and boosting automatization and robotization.
For a society to work there has to be jobs for people in that society.
Free trade no matter what the consequences model is like zero-interest-rates and free money for everybody no matter what the consequences model in central banking and debt.
Furthermore the current free trade with China is totally IMMORAL in that the chinese are poisoning the land, air and water in order to get competitive advantage in trade and earn a few more dollars for the immoral factory owners and few more bribes for the communists.
I think there should be environmental parity tariffs meaning that the trade advantage China currently gets from poisoning their land, air and water is removed by tariffs that both USA and EU place on chinese made goods until their environmental protections are equal to the environmental protections in EU and USA.
There should also be labor parity tariffs meaning current chinese model of working employees 12 hour days 6 days a week and forcing employees to live in the factory area is removed.
Since US government has debt of 20 TRILLION dollars aka 20,000 BILLION dollars and Trumps wall with Mexico done with most expensive estimate would cost 20 Billion it means Trumps great wall would increase US debt by 0.1%
ALL talk about the cost of the wall is pure unadulterated BS and exposes everyone worrying about the cost of the wall as open borders no matter what the societal costs zealot.
That simplistic way of looking at trade is the correct one. Like 2+2 equals 4. If the USA goes 20 trillion into debt buying chineese goods, then in the end the chineese better go buy trillions worth of USA products (creating jobs in the USA in return) or else they wasted their productivity once that money gets inflated into nothing.
Damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead?
So if these massive trade imbalances lead to massive economic disruption…depression…war…starvation…what have you….it’s all good?
We developed morals over thousands of years for a REASON….SURVIVAL.
Jon Sellers said:
They haven’t wasted their productivity. They’ve learned critical manufacturing and process skills that will allow them to become technology and wealth creation leaders for the next century.
When it comes to USA being the worlds policeman I am 100% in agreement with Mish and I also think that most of ISIS and Al-Qaida development that were ideologized based on Saudi interpretation of islam and Saudi/Qatar inspired sunni-supremacism have been enabled by the security guarantees USA has given to Saudi Arabia.
Without USA security guarantees to Saudis it would be unlikely that Saudi Arabia would be spreading sunni-supremacism and cheering the slaughter of shias by sunni-based ISIS and sunni-based Al-Qaida because without USA security guarantees shia-Iran would have most likely attacked Saudi Arabia to stop sunni-supremacism against shias carried out through sunni-ISIS and sunni-Al-Qaida if they would have taken it to the current level.
Currently sunnis are the nazis of the middle east and sunnis are butchering shias through ISIS and Al-Qaida while also butchering and raping christians and yazidis and other minorities.
The Iraq war by George W. Bush was a huge mistake, the killing of Gaddafi and destruction of Libya while Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State was huge mistake and the biggest mistake of all was supporting ISIS through ISIS-front Free Syrian Army in Syria by Hillary Clinton and Obama cheered on by war-mad John McCain and Lindsey Graham.
Obama and Hillary Clinton OWN all the genocide and slaughter that has happened in Syria and Libya.
George W. Bush OWNS all the horrible things that have happened in Iraq.
Thankfully NOW most of Iraq is peaceful.
The only valid war was Afganistan after 9/11, otherwise USA should have stayed out of Middle East.
Bin Laden stated as his deranged reasoning for 9/11 the troops USA had in Saudi Arabia so the security guarantees to Saudi Arabia have been too expensive for USA even before Saudis fell in love with sunni-ISIS after their love affair with sunni-Al-Qaida.
Harold Koehler said:
Has anyone ever considered that if we had let the Russians alone in Afghanistan 911 may have never happened. The Russians got involved in Afghanistan because the government was in danger of being overthrown in a civil war inspired by islamic jihadists. The Russians were allied with the Afghan government and reluctantly committed troops in order to avoid a radical islamic state arising on their border. Again we should keep the hell out of other peoples business.
Warren Miller said:
Yeah, and the Russians got their asses kicked bloody in Afghanistan. That’s why they left.
True. The support USA gave to islamic crazies in Afganistan was insanely stupid despite the goal being to hurt communist Soviet Union..
Enemy of my enemy policy is totally ideologically and morally bankrupt and should never again be used.
Russians got their asses kicked in Afganistan because USA gave islamic crazies stinger missiles so Osama Bin Laden and buddies shot up Soviet Union helicopters and without air support Soviet troops became sitting ducks when attacked by islamic crazies trying to reach paradise and get 72 virgins…
The “72 virgins” thing just shows how stupid they are. They’re only virgins once; then you have 72 wives, and heaven becomes hell. Duh!
Have you been awake?
Bush had the mess that was the Iraq war pretty much wrapped up. There was little violence there and they had something that almost worked like a government. And during the Iraq war, WHY did we not see the massive move of immigrants into Europe? It was ONLY after we walked away from Iraq…we broke it and we owned it, but walked away regardless, that we saw a significant rise in violence. And after first Egypt and then Libya and then Syria we have seen MASSIVE outflows of refugees. Yes, Bush screwed up going to war but it has been Obama and Hillary who have royally screwed the pooch here. Their view they they could manipulate these countries from behind, use other nations and peoples (many our sworn enemies) to create these instabilities has wrecked the world. They speak of Trump’s immigration ban as incentivizing terror when we can simply LOOK at what has been done in the last decade and there can be no denial (well actually lots do) that terror activities have ramped off the map under Obama, and it is nothing but a hateful joke to imply that Trump could do anything at this point that could substantially worsen it.
The world is awash in refugees, and they are not Bush’s refugees, nor Trumps. So lets not play games here.
The REASON why Trump is president, is that it is a widespread belief that NO ONE could do worse than Obama/Clinton. It is on display to the world and only serves to illuminate the deluded and morally depraved.
The rush of asylum seekers from Iraq to Europe started because Turkey started letting Iraqis come to Turkey without needing a pre-approved-visa and Turkey gave just a sticker-visa AUTOMATICALLY at the airport for ALL iraqis and Greece’s leftist-communist prime minister Alexis Tsipras made an election promise to end all detention of asylum seekers and illegal immigrants in Greece and release everyone previously put into detention in Greece and he kept his election promise in early 2015 and stopped border patrol and started giving quick boat rides from Greek islands near Turkey’s coast to Greece’s mainland.
And Angela Merkel in her complete incompetence stated that there are NO LIMITS on how many asylum seekers Germany takes and demanded that all EU countries must keep their borders open because open borders were an essential european value to Merkel and as cherry on top Merkel incompetently stated that Dublin-treaty no longer applies so even if one was caught by no-welfare-Hungary or no-welfare-Slovenia and made to submit an asylum application like Dublin-treaty demanded they could still come to Germany and get German welfare and free apartment paid by german taxpayers because of Merkel’s insane promise.
Also incentivizing iraqis to come was the incompetent EU-directives demanding quick processing of asylum applications (which raised the percentage of asylum seekers given residence permits based on just a story), stupid EU-directives that demanded that family re-unifications must be done quickly, and stupid EU-decision to make asylum processing systems and asylum bureaucrat trainings originally developed in loose, lax and incompetent Sweden the european standard in processing asylum claims through EASO (european Asylum Support Office).
Iraqis who had got into european welfare countries previously and got permanent residence, free apartment, free welfare money and quick family re-unification straight to welfare based on just a made-up or exaggerated story they told started bragging about this on facebook and laughing how they got asylum based on fairytale full of lies with NO PROOF needed and the rest is history.
Facebook became one big advertisement for asylum seekers to come to european welfare countries through Greece and Italy which were in Greece’s case pushing everyone towards northern welfare europe and in Italy’s case giving sea taxi rides from Libyan waters to Italy and then pushing over 50% towards northern welfare europe without registration and granting the rest asylum and residence permit in no-welfare-Italy with over 90% acceptance rate with the residence permit in Italy enabling them to move to welfare paying countries in EU thanks to the stupid EU-free-movement of people regulations
Also prime minister of Finland named Sipila was totally incompetent and clueless and promised his mansion to asylum seekers in the Angela Merkel inspired craziness and lunacy that gripped many european countries in the autumn of 2015 and this was top news in the BBC and became top news in Iraqi television also.
Most of europe was totally incompetent and crazy during 2015 and early 2016.
“Iran is not in violation of anything. It’s another “Gulf of Tonkin” incident, Saudi style, with the US siding with the nation directly sending the most money to ISIS.”
Mish, the US is mostly siding with Israel here rather than Saudi Arabia. I think it’s important to understand how US policy in the Middle East has been shaped for Israel’s interests, and whether that coincides with the US’s interests. I have always wondered why Americans would sacrifice much of their money and even personnel for what looks more to be Israel’s interests rather than America’s.
You’re wondering about that? Well, disagreeing means you are either a terrorist, nazi or self-hating Jew and in any case your career is over. That costs more to someone than the yearly sacrifice you mention.
Warren Miller said:
Wattapyo, U.S. policy with Israel is dictated by the extermination of 6 million Jews–because they were Jews–during and before WWII. I can make a strong moral case for the U.S. support of Israel now. Without us, the Muslim crazies in the Middle East would exterminate Israel. And if we don’t support Israel, no one else will, either.
Bullshit Give Palestine a state and treat both sides equally is what needs to be done
What happens if Palestine gets their State and they still instigate attacks on Israel? Will Israel be allowed to respond?
They have been at war for many decades now and continue to be so because BOTH SIDES are being supported…..just like with ISIS and the rest of the radical Islamists. Will ISIS stop if they are rewarded their own uncontested state and do they have as much “right” to it as the Palestinians?
This is not simple and the world has done all it can to make it as complicated as possible.
Since it was European Germans who did the exterminating, lands in Germany should be given to form the state of Israel, not Arab land. That way you would be punishing the actual wrong doers while protecting Jewish interests, and at the same time you would not have to worry about “Muslim crazies” exterminating Israel or being interested in targeting the West.
Maximus Minimus said:
You’ve got to include Bill Clinton in the title. Bill did not have drones at his disposal, but arguably set the ball rolling by ordering tomahawk missiles at bin Laden camps in Afganistan, and Somalia. Whether that led to 9/11 is also debatable.
My fellow stupid Norwegians gave Obama the Nobel peace price. It just goes to show how uninformed and naive some people are. The NATO general secretary is now Norwegian Jens Stoltenberg. As a young politician he was against NATO, but today he is making a good living out of war so he is desperate to keep NATO a strong entity so he needs an enemy. And the only credible enemy is Russia and Putin. And, by the way, he got his wife installed as ambassador to Brussels as well.
So there is a lot of people making a nice living out of this centrally planned system.
I agree that Obama was too trigger happy with the drones but I still think some droning in ISIS controlled and Al-Qaida controlled areas is a necessary evil.
Obviously the terrorist leaders will try to shield themselves with women and children just like palestinian terrorist leaders surround themselves with children and place their arms depots and terrorists training centers near daycares and hospitals in Gaza strip and rest of Palestine.
The drones should only strike based on good intel and when there are as few innocent by-standers around as possible.
Obama was simply too trigger-happy with the drones.
I will not go into how incredibly stupid and incompetent George Bush was with his Iraq war including hallucinations about democracy just sprouting up and americans being welcomed as liberators and the total ignorance to the differences and tensions between sunni-muslims and shia-muslims and kurds in Iraq.
You do agree that the amount of yearly misery caused by the Israelis to the Palestinians is a rather large multiple of the misery caused the other way around, right, without any looking-to-escape in “oh define misery”? So, that leads to a more interesting question for you, “katsaus”, to answer. Would you have problems with it if some warmonger, not labelled “terrorist” but responsible for innocent lives lost, gets killed together with his/her children?
Warren Miller said:
When it comes to the Israelis and the Palestinians, you’re ignoring who starts things. It’s ALWAYS the lunatic Palestinians (sorry to repeat myself). Like every sovereign nation, Israel has the right to self-defense in hopes of living in peace.
Palestinians teach their children that all jews must be killed and palestinians celebrate terrorists who kill israelis and the stated policy of palestinian organizations like Hamas is to drive jews to the sea.
You can not discuss with insane people like these.
Some israeli politician once wisely said that the Palestine-Israel conflict will only end when palestinian people start loving their children more than they hate jews and israelis meaning that peace can only come about when the virulent hate of israel and jews is stopped by the palestinian people and they start wanting a good future for their children WITHOUT the hate of jews and without wanting their children to become suicide bombers or crazy stabbers of israelis.
There has been injustices towards palestinians in taking their land titles instead of paying them off and the building of settlements is in some cases questionable but the situation is currently so bad in Palestine because palestinians make 5-7 kids per woman so things have gotten a bit crowded.
There should be new thinking in palestine and new palestinian leaders seeking true peace but unfortunately islam produces mainly crazies as politicians and sensible moderates are butchered by their own people before they have a chance to present a different way of politics in Palestine.
The west and especially several european countries are complicit in that they support palestinians no matter what instead of only supporting sensible palestinians and demanding end to the teaching of hate to the new generations of palestinians.
All development aid by EU to Palestine should be stopped until they eradicate extremists from leading positions and stop teaching hate to their children.
How about Israeli aggression against Palestine?
All aid to Israel should be stopped as long as it continues.
BillyBob Texas said:
Exactly what/when/where IS Palestine, Mish??
We can argue about the ‘legality’ of whatever the world NOW thinks as borders of the area of palestine. They have changed hundreds of times over thousands of years. But…Israel now owns the West Bank – (they’ve voluntarily given up authority to the also captured Gaza) as they won BOTH areas – AND the Golan Heights after winning several wars with the Arabs in the area.
So…when you (Arabs) start a war – and lose….you often lose your territory. Tough. Shouldn’t have started the war(s). YOU LOSE. The West Bank came from Jordan, Gaza from the Egyptians, and Golan from Syria. Tough. You lose, then you lose.
And no matter how many countries in the UN (136?) ‘recognize’ the palestinians – they STILL don’t have a country. The UN is patently anti-Israel, anyway. Isn’t THAT obvious?
Nearly EVERY ‘country’ on the planet has kept territory won in a war with their neighbors…..including our very own blessed USA. It happens. You fight and lose….then you lose…PERIOD. Don’t want to lose? – don’t start the fight. And don’t cry about it. And don’t expect to get it back, unless the winner deems it advantageous to themselves.
BillyBob Texas said:
And HERE is the list of 16 other recognized, (by some) – and unrecognized people that call themselves a ‘state’. Are they ALL represented in the UN, and receiving US Taxpayer money to help out their ‘governments’? And why not?
Okay, you successfully dodged the “more misery” question by quickly jumping to “who started it”. Fine. Do you agree that the whole damn conflict started in 1948 when armed-to-the-teeth invaders simply grabbed most of the land belonging to the people living there? You made a good point pointing out that the land could have been bought – free trade is good indeed. Guess buying ww2 war equipment and going on a rampage looked cheaper, but the result is that Israel up until today has to rely on guys like you to defend it morally. What’s your business doing that in any case?
BillyBob Texas said:
No. Did NOT start in 1948. Started about ~800 BC, when the Jews first came into that piece of property…..
….been fighting ever since. Will be fighting for the next 3000 years if Homo Sapiens lasts that long…..
There should be death sentences to any Saudi providing arms or funding to ISIS and same for any american providing arms or funding to ISIS (and this includes CIA agents just following orders and routing the arms and funding through Qatar).
USA should put all Saudis wishing to get a visa under extreme vetting because Saudi Arabia is the ideological home of radical islam and a country that gives most funding to ISIS and Al-Qaida.
15 of the 19 terrorist hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis.
NEVER FORGET that Saudi Arabian people formed majority of the 9/11 terrorist hijackers that killed thousands of americans!
USA should demand complete purge of radical islamist preachers in Saudi Arabia and death sentences to every saudi arabian providing funding or arms to ISIS or Al-Qaida.
USA military guarantees to Saudi Arabia are what has enabled Saudi Arabia to export sunni-supremacism and genocidal hate of shias around middle east and this has formed the ground on which sunni-terrorism groups like ISIS and Al-qaida have based themselves. Hate of shias and christians and yazidis and all minorities in the middle east as infidels.
Exactly, we have the best government money can buy. I saw a documentary on Saudi Arabia, on PBS no less. It is interesting to note that they teach in their public schools that Christians and Jews should be killed/beheaded in the name of Allah. These are our allies. You are correct, the CIA and the Saudi’s provided the seed capital for ISIS and created Frankenstein. I don’t know if our government is just fucking stupid or corrupt. I suspect both.
They are just kidding, like when the Iranians say death to America and Israel. Who in their right mind would believe these people could be violent??
Islam crazed shias in Iran are crazy too but the most barbaric atrocities are committed by sunnis.
ISIS is EXCLUSIVELY Sunni organization.
Al-Qaida is EXCLUSIVELY Sunni organization.
MOST of the victims of both Al-Qaida and ISIS have been shia muslims.
Saudi Arabia is the country that is exporting both extreme interpretations of islam and virulent hate of shias and naziesque sunni-supremacism.
Saudi Arabia’s security is GUARANTEED by USA.
If Trump starts a war against Iran he is either incompetent or bought and paid for by Saudi Arabia.
War with Iran would have been 100% certain if Hillary Clinton had won because she was bought and paid for through the Clinton foundation by Saudi Arabia and Qatar to the tune of around 50 million dollars.
What would you consider an act of aggression by Iran? Or are they kind of an affirmative action nation where because of past injustices they are not held to account for contemporary actions.
As we see within our own country, while actions and even words may APPEAR the same, they are completely dependent upon WHO said or did them.
And a real question I have for the mega brains here today is: if Trump’s Travel ban is illegal because of its irreparable harm to people and businesses, then WHAT THE HELL IS EVERY OTHER GOVERNMENT ACTION THEY HAVE TAKEN? HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN FUCKED BY OBAMACARE ALONE?
I certainly know I feel abused.
Iran is shia.
Assad the president of Syria is alawite-shia.
ISIS is sunni.
Al-Qaida is sunni.
Al-Nusra is sunni.
Saudi Arabia is sunni.
Qatar is sunni.
ALL of the 9/11 terrorist plane hijackers were sunnis and 15 of the 19 were saudi arabians.
Sunnis commit nearly all of the terrorist acts against american and european people committed by muslims.
Muslim brotherhood is sunni.
Taliban is sunni.
Boko Haram is sunni.
Al-Shabaab is sunni.
Do you see a pattern?
Iran is ruled by mad muslim religious leaders that have the final say on things despite Iran having a nominal democracy but on the totality of things sunnis are the much more problematic group and the sunni-supremacism and virulent shia-hate that Saudi Arabia spreads is enabled by US security guarantees to Saudi Arabia.
You left out Truman, Mish, who never had congressional approval for the Korean War, and boy Clinton, who never had congressional or UN approval for the air war over Serbia to enforce stealing the province of Kosovo to enforce some Balkan’s ethnic cleansing; at least LBJ and the two Bushes, another Texas transplant, got congressional authorization for the Vietnam War and the two Gulf Wars. You do realize that during the last year of WW2 German military recruitment was at its peak due to allied offensive operations? I believe Japanese military recruitment was at its peak too.
Face it, it is over. What is occuring now and building for decades, is fracturing this country.
We have a situation where our constitution now protects non residents, non citizens, pre immigrant immigrants.
Define New World Order.
Those resisting and protesting are self centereed on thier own needs and wants, Or were hired guns not from the right to add fuel to the fire as Robert Reich foolishly suggested on CNN–because he has his agenda.
My opinions would change when these folks get together to solve the differences.
I do recall a time when immigrants would be funnelled thru Ellis Island in an orderly manner. What ever happened to that great america?
In 2008 Then Candidtae Obama was proposing a 1 Trillion fund, funded mostly by the US to provide financial aid to other countries–with our money.
The Presidents and Congress tend to overstep their boudries on a regualr basis–but then fail to do what they are supossd to do, eg, balance the budget and not kick the can down the road. The Sentue the last several years never even proposed budgets.
we have a total mess on our hands and the main reason why Trump is President is none of the other candidates had a clue or was capable of fixing things.
Trumo is going to get the cold shoulder from tehemedia , the other 53%, congress and anybody else. This country is going to go backwards, unless we go bankrupt first.
Since our financial strength has always been out core strength, now that we are losing it, we have no everage.
The first order of business when you are bleeding to death is to stop the bleeding.. We are not.
Now here is a shocker–out to dinner last night with friends. 3 had post grad degrees. Split politically.
None of them knew who George Soros is. None.
None really understood issues or facts, but the political debate went on for hours, with vigor.
None knew or understood teh govt jazzes up economic data. None understood how bad the public employees pension systems are. They did remind me that pensions are promeisses guaranteed by in this case the Illinois constitution.
They told me with distain that I might be wrong.
I just asked, if we are tens of billions in the hole, no cash in Chicago or Illinois, unable to borrow and taxpayers are moving out of the state in droves, just how the hell can the city and state meet it obligation that are consitutionall protected? The numbers do nt work, period.
They responded that it was guaraneed by the constitution. I said but we do not have money and the tax base, the big tax payers have left.
They did not understand or did not want to understand.
too many people live in a dream world, of how they beleive things should be. It IMO has been fostered not just by the news media but also by movies and TV shows where everything turns out OK.
Calif makes a 1.5 Billion budget mistake. Did anybody do a smell test check on that. Nah–they liked the result and did not review it
Calif just lowered its pension earnigns assumptions to 7%! What risk do they have to take to get that.
My take on Super Bowl Sunday is we have a bunch of people in local state and Federal Governments who are more concerend about their careers than their constituents well being and are not talented enough to make good change occur.
We have a bunch of consitutents, (and some outsders who are not constituents) who do not understand squat yet protest if they do not get what they want.
I do not think this can be fixed. We not only have a major financial and economic problem we have never had before , but we have social problems that cannot be resolved.
Mickey – I have had the exact same experiences as you when trying to discuss the issues with friends: shocking ignorance of underlying facts. What is worse is that when I try to educate them, they tell me they do not want to hear it, or do not believe it. Sad, and I don’t know the solution.
John Smith said:
Mish’s POV is a minority view. The vast majority of Americans support the right of their government to kill anyone, anywhere, any time. As long as it is done in the name of “national security” they will agree with whatever action their government takes. In fact I have no doubt that most people would support nuking Iran or anyone else who gets in our way.
And in that same spirit, is there any question that Iran would do the same to us if given the chance…or are Americans the only evil in the world. This is like analyzing the stock market over any specific period of time to determine its performance. Human strife, killing, demonization, REVENGE have been going on from the beginning of time. We want to pretend we can change humanity by simply passing a law, indoctrination, or just hope. This is nothing new, but we just can’t accept it.
“Mish’s POV is a minority view. The vast majority of Americans support the right of their government to kill anyone, anywhere, any time. As long as it is done in the name of “national security” they will agree with whatever action their government takes.”
As you no doubt know, just because the government says it’s about ‘national security’ doesn’t mean that it is. More and more Americans are finding that out. They are fed up with war and increasingly skeptical about its ‘benefits’.
The majority of Americans don’t care about anything that doesn’t directly affect them. They don’t care where their consumption comes from, where jobs come from, where their food comes from or who their president is unless they think it’s going to hit their life. Of course we have the “motivated responders” on the left who are indoctrinated in school and most definitely support whomever they are pointed at. As we noticed, they were completely silent during Obama’s droning and bombing, and his increased surveillance state and decimation of the jobs engine.
Nope, people really don’t care unless they are paid to care…..and then there are fools like us who like to hear our brains rattle.
The day is coming when Americans will have a lot to care about – and not on account of Trump but in spite of his actions to try and reverse the metastatic political cancer that our government has imposed upon the nation for the last 50 years.
Trump is actually part of the solution – but it’s such a radical and foreign concept to the brainwashed masses their knee jerk reaction is automatic rejection before reform is even allowed a chance to succeed.
When ordinary Americans who owned homes and had jobs start going hungry then America will start to wake up – albeit it will be too late.
I agree Mish… Mr president stand down the perpetual premptive war regime!
Gosh, I wonder why no one else has thought of this in ten thousand years?
There is no piece, only rest breaks and reorganization for larger conflicts.
Alex Spencer said:
Stupid Bush foreign policy you would think the opposing party would reverse as top priority. Instead we get Affordable Care Act. Stupid Bush- Obama foreign policy you would think would be reversed by the universally hated by both parties Trump administration. Waiting, but have my doubts, with DJT. I have been disappointed so many times before since 1970’s.
fine by me mish, if you post anti war articles all you care to. everytime I hear a helicopter fly over head I think how the sound might bring terror to my thoughts if I were in a different country. I try to imagine what it must be like to never know if your house is going to be blown up tonight.
with just a few short imaginings I become horrified of war.
thanks for speaking out mish.
slightly difference subject:
Rahm Emanuael , Chicago and Sanctuary cities.
Rahm has been mayor since 2011-6 years. I saw him on TV teh other day critical of Trump for being against Sanctuary cities.
Sanctuary means a place of refuge.
Why are we providing refuge for illigeal criminal immigrants? Especially when the broad iddle class has to pay attn to laws incluidng the no eleimated tax fee or whatever on not havinghealth insurance.
We should have high stadrds and expectations for people but do not.
Meanwhile Rahm was critical of Trump
Rahm shoudl shut his mouth and do what he should have been doing the last 6 years-fix chicagos problems.
When He was in Obamas WH he left because he always wanted to be Mayor of Chicago,GFC, since when do people get highly imprtant jobs just because they wanted it?
On any measurement Rahm has been the total failure yet he is critical of Trump who has been in 2 weeks.
Rahm needs to be “excused ” from office of mayor and get somene in who can fix problems.
he shoudl not be throwing stones at Trump as he and others do when they have failed
Rahm, you “optics ” are bad
just don’t stand there, do something.
So the logic is, we shouldn’t have bombed Nazi Germany because we created more enemies than we killed. Got it!
There’s the stupid Nazi card again. I was wondering what Idiot would apply it first, and in what absurd manner
How about Neville Chamberlain then???
There is nothing wrong with questioning war…far from it, it’s an absolute necessity. But, people who attempt to connect the dots of history that unendingly replay themselves maybe a bit too simple, but not idiotic. The Idiots are the ones who always believe that this time is different.
Ok, Mish- turn it into any war or nation in history, Germans, Japan, Rome. To not fight back against your enemy is to gift them victory and turn your countrymen and family into slaves. Maybe you think radical Islam is your friend? And I think it should be below you to call names – or maybe not?
Mission Accomplished said:
Obama is like James Bond.
He has licence to kill from the Nobel Prize Commission.
Our human laws are over ridden by those Gods
His “license” was provided by the progressive media/education system.
“By what right does the US have to bomb the hell out of seven countries in obvious acts of war, without even declaring war?”
It’s contained in the small print that came with Obama’s Nobel Peace Prize – “Bearer my drop or fire no more than 130,000 high explosive devices during any eight year period with no penalty.” Trump doesn’t have one, so he is technically in violation.
Seriously, like many things Constitutional, the is water long over the bridge on this one. Considering the likely fully intentional quagmire made of the Middle East by the neo”conservatives” and the resulting huge and rapid growth in “radical Islam” (Muslims who are actually following the edicts of their instruction manual, the Koran), I wonder how much worse things would be there or, much more importantly to ME, HERE if drone strikes had not been liberally used.
Here is the issue. If you polled all Americans and explained to them THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT’S POLICY ON MURDER BY DRONE … how it really works … who it kills, why they were killed and the “collateral damage” of innocent bystanders …then 80-90% of them would be against it; maybe even greater than 90%. The problem is this: It will not stop … I guarantee it. Its too easy. Its too clean. If Trump is forceful and works diligently for years … he may scale it back dramatically … to an occasional rare usage (to which I might even agree with … to stop something like another 9/11 from happening, etc). But it will not stop completely. He can’t stop it … the Prez cannot stop it, the people cannot stop it. AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM. The people can’t control their own government, their own military … their OWN SPY AGENCIES that SPY ON THEIR OWN PEOPLE. When the people cannot control their own government => HUGE PROBLEM. This is not government by the people, for the people … this is government for its own sake with its own agenda and the people can go to hell. And since the government spies on everything you do now and will soon ban cash … they can and they will … arrest and imprison anyone they think is a threat to their power. All you have to do is look at History.
Trump was elected to try and curtail these horrible leftists policies along with the neo-cons that support them … most of us doubt very much whether he will be successful. My predication is that he will not make it thru his term and will be assassinated… killed by someone he does not see coming … like a rogue member of one of the spy agencies (NSA, CIA), a bodyguard perhaps (SS), or another politician … perhaps even a member of his own party. Hell … he just had transcripts of private phone calls … made from the White House to foreign leaders … leaked. Some of these people are truly Evil … bordering on insane and will stop at nothing. Thank god Harry Reid is no longer in the Senate. I seriously believe that Pelosi would do it if given the chance … ditto for John McCain.
Crazy times we are living in … for sure. Mish, I know you don’t agree with all of Trump’s policies (like build the wall !) but you should get on board and cheer him on. If he fails … we are all doomed. And by “we” I mean the US of course … but with the power this country has … the nukes … etc. I am really talking about the literal survival of the human race. So help him succeed or participate in destruction the human race. The choice … should be obvious. Do you want survival for you, or family, our culture and society ? If so … back Trump whether you agree with him or not. Enough with the anti-trump rhetoric.
ZeroHedge has a brief clip on the O’Reilley show with Trump telling him that we (the US) are not so innocent and have killed just like Putin. Link is at the bottom of this page as I write.
Jon Sellers said:
Putin has nothing on the US. Since the end of WWII Americans have murdered more innocents than every other country put together.
All the Trump bashers will ignore what Trump told O’Reilly, Woot.
They only hear what they want to hear.
You’ll never read a blog entitled “Trump Questions US Innocence Abroad”.
It just doesn’t fit the agenda.
Like Gerald Celente, I am a political atheist. And like Samuel Clemens, I am a loyal American, but loyal to the government only when it deserves it. I refer back to the book “The Ugly American”. It’s a good book and a good read. In most cases, we Americans are so ignorant of other cultures and events happening outside of our own country, outside of our own reality television shows. We have been told by our mainstream media and our government that Iran is totally committed to the total destruction of Israel because they’re always saying “Death to Israel.” I remember Rick Steve’s visit to Iran where he learned that Iranians say that about everything. While riding in a cab in the horrible traffic conditions in Tehran, Mr. Steves heard the cab driver utter some heated language and he asked his interpreter what the driver had said. The Interpreter told him that the driver had exclaimedd “Death to traffic!!! Death to traffic!!!” The interpreter told him it was like Americans saying, “F*ck you and F*ck him and F*ck taxes and F*ck the government.”
That’s good to hear after all the talk about massive funding of terror groups, the supplying of IEDs that killed our American soldiers in Iraq and rockets to Palestine, Not to mention the complete destruction of Lebanon.
Iranians are good guys after all.
Facts and lies all mixed together to where no one can sort them all out “justly”. Everybody feels justified for whatever they believe.
Good man for speaking out Mish.
Speaking out against wrong!
James Greenberg said:
Thank you for joining Jacob Hornberger of FFF in promulgating the only moral stance on this issue.
Like his moral stance favoring open borders so more indigent illiterate foreigners can pour into our country and turn us into an official 3rd world banana republic?
That Jacob Hornberger?
Moral for whom?
Those pushing morality tend to be the same ones who don’t have to pay for it. Morality has a significant cost, especially in the short run…..just like liberty. Few want to pay for it with their lives, but are ready to sacrifice others.
But libertarians don’t give a damn about cost. Their motto should be “Liberty. at any Cost”. They don’t like using force on people unless it’s forcing money out of your wallet to pay for their idea of liberty. They protect individual rights but not collective rights. I was thinking about becoming a libertarian at one time…but when I looked further into their philosophy I discovered it was in the same liberal socialist church as the democrats – just a different pew.
We can again have freedom when people are willing to allow consequences of choice to land where they will. Meanwhile, even libertarians still support welfare that subsidizes bad choices. I remember when they imposed helmet laws and seat belt laws telling us how it was not only a necessity to save lives but also lower our healthcare costs given that unsafe driver’s cost were folded back into our own,,,,,not just because of insurance but because our government decided that no one could be refused healthcare…no matter how irresponsible. We are trapped within this paradigm where we cannot be free because it has been determined that we are also responsible for our fellow man, no matter how foolish. Good choices do not happen like magic or coincidence. They are reinforced by consequence….something our government is trying to bury deeper every day.
James Greenberg said:
It is possible to agree with someone on one issue and disagree with them on another. Your opinion of his view on immigration has no bearing on his view of American imperialism. Nice strawman though.
James Greenberg said:
And as regards the immigration issue, Hornberger is in favor of open borders, but he also advocates the dismantling of the welfare/warfare state, thus resolving the notion that immigrants would have to be paid for somehow. You really should read him in more depth instead of the obvious superficial reading you have thus given him,
Yancey Ward said:
I’m a long time on and off reader- first time commenter. Although I’m a registered Independent, many would say I’m as liberal as they get. That doesn’t mean I can’t see the hypocrisy of policies or rhetoric. There is a lot of it out there. Thank you for pointing this particular one out. I don’t always agree with everything written here, but your blog is good for getting a fresh perspective. Writers like you help keep partisan views in check, and I hope there will be more. Awesome work!
BillyBob Texas said:
Open Borders. I LOVE it! Question for each and every Open Border person: How many unfortunate refugees do YOU house and clothe and feed from YOUR house? How many are you providing everything they need….until they can get on their feet and provide for themselves? With YOUR money and resources. Good! Then THAT’s how many we should let in – because YOU will provide for them.
You do NOT have the right (even if it makes you FEEEEEEL good) to make ME pay for them. It’s your party. YOU pay for it. When you are ready to do that – then we can ALL have a party.
Until then, YOU are a hypocrite – wanting ME to pay for YOUR ‘feelings’.
BillyBob you reminded me of a friend who once told me that he asks people who are totally against abortion: “How many unwanted children have you adopted?”
BillyBob Texas said:
I cannot argue with THAT! And it is a good point. However, lots of people consider abortion murder – and I don’t quite see that being done to illegals entering the country.
Ron J said:
Rahm Emanuel famously said never let a crisis go to waste, after the 2008 financial collapse.
George Bush had Rahm’s quote beat by 8 years. 9/11 was a crisis not allowed to go to waste. War for 15 years and counting. Longest war in American history, leaving Obama as the first President to be at war every day of his Presidency. I remember when it seemed like the Vietnam War was never going to end.
What is going on is not simply a war against terrorism. That is a mask covering the face of a grand strategy. What is going on behind the mask?
Over 26,000 bombs on 7 different nations in 2016 put a lot of beef on the dinner table. Something has to keep this fake economy afloat. War has been the human answer for hundreds of years. Why stop now?
One of these days a lunatic from a nation like N. Korea will get a wild hair up his ass and fire a nuke – which will result in a chain reaction. And that will be the end of that.
Appreciated your comments Fred, hope to read more of them if and when.
Think US policy change and EU politics are relevant themes, but not to get caught up in them either.
I applaud Mish for bringing up the topic of drone killings,but I have long given up on Americans rising up to challenge or even protest these serial killings. The American left only care about LGBTQ rights, minority rights, abortion rights etc in America. While the American right only care about being able to carry guns, forcing women not to have abortions, making everyone goes to church or do the pledge of allegiance whenever they get the chance. None of them care about foreigners being killed, or even a few Americans being killed overseas; unless it is used as a pretext for invading some other country, then it becomes “responsibility to protect” or R2P. By now I believe such remorseless and guiltless behavior must be in the American DNA. After all, didn’t the original American natives got practically wiped off from the face of the earth only this past 200-300 years. To be honest I am beginning to think there must be a super high percentage of psychopaths in the US, after all, psychopaths seem to be always the ones that are super successful in the US, be they politicians, bankers, or CEOS. Being successful, I am sure they fathered far more children than the average normal Joe. Over a couple of centuries, I would think that would have increased the percentage of such genepool significantly compared to other nations.
John B. Goodrich said:
Sorry, but I’m an American. I understand geography, history, economics and public policy. I am opposed to drone killings, unnecessary wars, and the military industrial complex. From Johnson’s Vietnam through all the conflicts which followed, there is no possible way to balance their cost in lives and treasure with the benefits (if any) for our citizens. Instead they have impoverished us while making us the most hated bully on the planet.
AGreed, thank u Mish Could not have said it better.
It doesn’t help to put the responsibility on “the US” or “We”. Have the balls to put the responsibility where it belongs, on the “State/government” worshipers. Broadcasting their names is essential. If the names belong to family and friends, tough shit. They’re still evil. What are you doing having evil friends?.
// By what right does the US have to bomb the hell out of seven countries in obvious acts of war, without even declaring war? //
That’s easy. By the right generated via rational reasoning via acquiring knowledge by observing reality where the fact is those bombed are very highly likely to be the enemies of American Freedom,Liberty, Individualism, Capitalism, and Rationality. That’s where the right to kill our enemies comes from.
By the same rationale they have the right to blow up Washington D.C.
By the way, I suggest instead of depending on absurd logic, point to a paragraph in the constitution that allows the President, not Congress, to unilaterally conduct war.
A writer from the East said: