Unless the central government in Madrid forcibly stops elections, the Catalan Independence Vote will take place on October 1.
Politico covers What Spain has to Lose from Catalan Independence.
Catalonia Percent of Spain
Voting Intentions
Poll Source in Spanish: Centre d’Estudis d’Opinió (CEO) June 2017
2015 Advisory Voting Map
Why?
Please consider Why some Catalans want to break away from Spain.
Research from CEO (above link), as translated by Politico
- Increased autonomy (26 percent)
- Belief that Catalonia would improve if it struck out on its own (23 percent)
- Desire for a new model for running a country (19 percent)
“I want a fair country, a more social and leftist country, and I believe the best way to achieve that is leaving Spain,” said Marc Becat, a 22-year-old who works in sales.
“All the money and all the taxes that flow to the Spanish government will stay in [an independent] Catalonia,” said Ana Martí Benavente, a 78-year-old Barcelona pensioner.
“It’s the Popular Party above all things, I hate them, that’s it,” said Alex Fores, a 21-year-old engineering student. “They’re very right-wing and obviously if you look at what people vote here [in Catalonia] it’s a completely different ideology.”
“What we Catalans find surprising is how the international community doesn’t react to the fact that we’re being prevented from voting” — Marta Alsina, teacher.
March in Barcelona
Pro-Independence Flag Face
Spain Threatens to Arrest Mayors in Favour of Vote
The Express reports Spain Threatens to Arrest Mayors in Favour of Vote.
Aljazeera reports Spain Summons Catalan Mayors Over Independence Vote.
Spain’s state prosecutor has ordered a criminal probe of all 700-plus Catalan mayors who have backed an independence referendum, as Madrid seeks to block the separatist vote it deems illegal.
The country’s prosecutor office on Wednesday ordered the 712 mayors, who have agreed to help stage the October 1 vote, to be summoned to court as official suspects and called for their arrest in case of a refusal to appear for questioning.
Barcelona Mayor Ana Colau, who opposes secession but supports a vote, says she wants to help arrange the referendum but won’t do so without assurances that she and her staff would be acting legally.
Spain’s King Felipe VI also entered the fray on Wednesday, stepping up the pressure on Catalonia by vowing that the Spanish constitution “will prevail” over any attempt to break the country apart.
In his first comments on the growing political crisis, Felipe said the rights of all Spaniards will be upheld against “whoever steps outside constitutional and statutory law.”
Hundreds of thousands of people took to the streets of Barcelona this week to show support for independence.
Opinion polls show that Catalans are evenly divided on independence, but over 70 percent want a referendum to take place to settle the matter.
One Million March
The Guardian reports One Million Catalans March for Independence on Region’s National Day
Up to a million Catalans have gathered in Barcelona to call for independence less than three weeks before the region is due to hold a vote on whether to break away from Spain.
For the sixth successive year, Catalonia’s national day – La Diada de Catalunya – was used as a political rally by the pro-independence movement. Organisers said 450,000 people had registered for the event, and Barcelona police later tweeted that 1 million turned up.
Polls also show that Catalans are divided on whether they wish to secede from Spain. A survey at the end of July found that 49.4% of Catalans were against independence and 41.1% supported it.
Raül Romeva, the Catalan foreign affairs minister, told reporters that the referendum had already begun, with expatriate Catalans voting by post.
“You need to remember that people are already voting,” he said. “The Catalan community abroad is already voting. Those people who say there’ll be no referendum forget that the referendum is already under way.”
Ballot Papers to Be Seized
The BBC reports Ballot Papers for Banned Referendum to be Seized.
Catalonia’s public prosecutor has ordered the seizure of all ballot papers ahead of a banned independence referendum deemed illegal. The vote on breaking away from Spain, planned for 1 October, has been suspended by the constitutional court.
But Catalonia’s pro-independence government says it will still go ahead. As a result, the Public Prosecutor’s Office instructed security forces to take everything which could help with the “consummation of the crime”.
The order came as Spanish tennis champion Rafael Nadal came out strongly against the plans. “You can’t skip the laws because you want to skip them,” Nadal told a paper.
Rajoy’s Political Mistakes
Prime minister Rajoy is telling Catalonians not to vote because it is illegal.
I strongly suspect the people most likely to stay away from the polls on that message are those who do not favor independence.
Rajoy also made mistakes leading up to the current referendum.
In 2006, with agreement from the Spanish Parliament and approved by a majority in a referendum a statute on Catalonia was approved.
In 2010, Rajoy asked the constitutional court to overturn the law. It did. 14 articles were abolished and 27 will be reinterpreted governing Language, judiciary, taxes and self-recognition as a ‘nation’.
This inflamed Catalonia and rightly so.
In Favor of an Independent Catalonia
I am in favor of an independent Catalonia if that is how the citizens vote.
I seem to recall how citizens of one country decided to skip the law because they did not like it. The protest worked out pretty well.
I am talking of course about the Boston Tea Party and subsequent US independence from Britain via the American Revolution.
What’s Spain going to do to stop the referendum? Send in the troops?
Mike “Mish” Shedlock
They should ask Turkey for diplomatic recognition and a sovereign state.
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Let Putin run the vote, he did a great job in Ukraine!
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You do understand that the coup in the Ukraine was backed by the US/UK/EU globalist stooges, right? It most certainly was NOT a “grassroots” uprising of any sort. The documentation is quite clear and readily available. Whatever Putin has done in the region since is a direct result of western interference.
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Forcible suppression of democracy will lead to a very tense situation. Catalonia and especially the Basques are the creative, innovative part of Spain…and I don’t mean tennis players or other useless people. What if many of them leave?
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“What we Catalans find surprising is how the international community doesn’t react to the fact that we’re being prevented from voting” That’s such a correct observation. And they don’t react because they know that people are fed with their far away, centralized way of governing. And independence movements will only spread.
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@Fabian
Perhaps the international community knows that the Spanish constitution does not allow any province to leave Spain unilaterally?
Also stop lying to the Catalanes there is no way in hell that if by any chance you gain independence you remain in the EU. Moreover, just like in the UK there will be an exodus of Catalanes to Spain including businesses. All I need to know that you separatistas are fools is to point out that Podemos actually supports your effort. What a laugh this is the same Podemos who is still supporting Maduro in Venezuela. I mean really!
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I have commented on this before.
As an independent nation, Catalonia would have to apply for EU membership.
However, no one could stop Catalonia from adopting the Euro.
The only caveat, as I pointed out, Catalonia could not print euros.
Since there is a huge amount of trade from Catalonia to the rest of Spain, Spain would be foolish to suppress it.
But fools are everywhere.
Mish
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Podemos does not support an independent Catalonia. They did support a referendum. They do not support a referendum now because of the way it was forced through.
Mish
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Podemos central is looking to gain politically by destabilising and blaming the PP government, Podemos wings are backing the referendum, in Cataluña and Madrid
https://m.madridiario.es/noticia/448247/politica/sanchez-mato-y-diputados-de-podemos-firman-a-favor-del-referendum-catalan.html
And Andalucia
https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/andalucia/2017-09-13/independencia-cataluna-referendum-podemos-andalucia_1442871/
Etc.
I have to call it a day commenting on this thread for now because it is too heavy and too close for me to think into. 😦
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Podemos…Mr. Mish, supports Mr. Maduro in Venezuela, Castro in Cuba or Iran in Asia, they don´t support EU or the EU parliament and after living the character during 7 years you arrive to the conclusion that Mr Iglesias (chair of Podemos) is just doing whatever allow him to reach power..
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I do not disagree with any of that. Iglesias is a socialist nutcase.
But Podemos backed off supporting the Referendum according to Eurointelligence and Eurointelligence usually get facts like that correct.
Otherwise, attacks on Podemos have little to do with anything.
So, what did I say that is inaccurate?
Mish
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Podemos is as Mr. Trump in U.S will say something in Michigan and the opposite in TX, my point with you is that you are not aware that Spanish Constitution has a referendum process integrated.
what you can not do, is to vote in a process that has no clear rules, where who is counting votes is not a official body,
It´s like you can organize a “referendum” in your own local suburbia and pretend that it has national and international recognition.
The government of Catalonia (created with a association of losers in the election) says:
That 30% participation is OK
That winning by just 1 single vote is OK
Rest of Spanish people is not allowed to vote, only the persons in the lists they create
Mish ,Your only support is a journal subscription blog that´s ok for likes and visits in your page but fairly recreates reality.
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The negative feedback loop will eventually prevail. And what to think about the idiotic argument that the referendum violates the constitution when the referendum is basically about the constitution.
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The referendum is about a ‘new’ (i.e. Catalonian) constitution?
What percentage of Spain’s national debt does Catalonia get allocated? Does that get covered?
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Independence would be a good thing for everyone. I think smaller countries with governments more aligned with the people are better.
The same holds for the US. We would be better off with 50 independent states. Let each state decide the issues for themselves. The laws for California would be different from Texas. More of a live and let live philosophy. Less big global governance, foreign entanglements and war.
Centralized governments grow and strangle individual liberty.
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Even if Spain holds it all together, they, like others, will dissolve. It’s just the way it’s all going. The nation state won’t mean much in the EU soon enough.
Catalonia really reports into the EU via Spain. In future it will be direct EU control of Catalonia and whatever else is left of Spain.
Junker gave his state of the Union today. More EU, finance minister, single president instead of heads of state etc etc.
All the countries will dissolve. Madrid will just be a rubber stamp place anyway.
EU has a plan to execute over “x” years just like the Soviet Union did.
Striking parallels.
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The EU, like Spain, is going bankrupt and dying of old age. If the Catalans will report to any supranational occupying force from their old folks homes, it will be to some Caliph somewhere.
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It’s a difficult one.
You have the constitution that “guarantees law, order and democracy”, and you have the Catalan Parlament that ” has to pass its own law just to be able to vote”.
We don’t know how an independent Cataluña would be, added to the wider picture of national and EU power play.
I support both sides in some way, Spain as nation and the idea of closer government, which is hard as you realise that under the circumstance, the reality, you would be encouraging conflict between the two.
It could get very unpleasant.
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Most of the mayors will declare before the Spanish justice regarding their support of the referendum. Their moto is something like “When the justice pursues a person, that person has a problem, but when it pursues 700 mayors, the justice has a problem”
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“I want a fair country, a more social and leftist country, …”
“All the money and all the taxes that flow to the Spanish government will stay in [an independent] Catalonia,”
Cool! Enlightened socialists. Gotta love their thinking “Lets separate and keep all the other peoples money for ourselves”
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lessons for Brexit negotiators
rump england surely noticing
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Numpty.
Reads today’s news.
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More clueless socialists who think they can have unlimited free sh!t for themselves if they don’t have to support all the downtrodden elsewhere in their country.
Just proves they demand socialism even though they are clueless what it is.
They want to stop sending “their” money to downtrodden losers in Madrid, which isn’t very socialist of them. And they want the unelected in Brussels governing over the infantile mis-educated in Catalonia.
This is one of those slow motion train wrecks you just have to watch. Will Catalonian infants secede and go bankrupt before the infants of California? Which one of them will say something so spectacularly self-contradictory that their movement will stop in its own tracks?
Whether children in adult bodies should have the right to self governance is one question, whether these children are ready to take on the task they are demanding is quite another.
Then again, they don’t have to do a good job — they just have to be less inept than Brussels.
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There are so many levels to this that it is beyond understanding. Nationalism and historic claim, statecraft and at EU level, political ideology, Spanish national construct, to name but a few. It is basically modern asymmetric warfare, people know it in their own way, align with the closest denominator. So it is not really possible to draw a clear line… there was a clear line but it has become blurred or rejected. Spain will send in the army if nescessary, no doubt. You imagine how that will be played on, say financially, or tourism? First will be arrests, some protest depending on who, then active disruption of the referendum before or on the day if the whole leadership isn’t already rounded up, and then violence. In EU people are not heavily armed, so it will likely be a long simmering discontent, if there is no coordinated action in other parts of Spain. I follow the press in Spain, some details stand out as being quickly burried, like a factory being discovered where tens of thousands of disabled arms were being reconditioned for use, or the dissapearance of many anti-tank missiles from storage. If you look at ETA, they only wound down after France decided that they would support Spain by controlling activity in France. Nothing is a given here, and I don’t like to exagerate either, so I say this all just as caution, but Spain will send in the army if nescessary.
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I ignored the polling “data” in the blog post, because I’ve seen how easy it is to manipulate polls — and how bad (inaccurate) they can be when the media is clearly pushing one spin of the story over the other.
What caught my eye were the four quotes from Catalonians — they think they want independence (ok so far), but they want independence for independence sake, not because they have even a halfway coherent plan to govern after they “win” (if they win, I have no idea).
One 78 year old doesn’t want her money going to Madrid and spent on waste and fraud — sorry lady, that’s called government. Send it to Washington DC, send it to Brussels, send it to London or Moscow or Beijing — they will do exactly the same thing. If this 78 year old had said she wants a smaller government and smaller taxes (or a bigger government / bigger taxes) — at least that is a well thought out plan. You may agree or disagree with the plan. But fighting for independence so a different group of bureaucrats can waste your money? That is not a plan.
Then there are two 20 somethings who sound like cult members. They hate right wing Rajoy, they want a left wing Rajoy. And “OBVIOUSLY” everyone else in their cult, and all of Catalonia, must agree with them or else they will be hated too. That is not a plan for governance, its a temper tantrum from two infants who don’t know right from left from Starbucks. Their leader told them what to think, and they shouted their cult thinking to the newspaper. Those two kids might be able to take up arms (like many kids in African countries do) — but those two kids cannot govern.
And then comes the teacher, who seems determined to show her ignorance. Socialism? Who’s money (in Catalonia) does she plan to steal? What happens when she runs out of other people’s money? It happened to Venezeula’s Chavez and he started with a massive oil reserve (still managed to wreck it)! Who does this teacher plan to steal from in Catalonia? If you can’t answer that question, then she also does not have a coherent plan for governance (even temporary).
And joining the EU? If the stories in Sweden and Germany of immigrants raping and stealing and forcing sharia are true … Germany’s culture is going to change. Look at the economy of Germany (which currently floats the whole EU experiment) and look at the economy of Syria (the direction Brussels and Merkel want to take Europe). Tell me how the EU can function if the immigration continues without the immigrants being assimilated first? By the time Catalonia joins the EU, Germany will have given Merkel the boot (hello maastricht treaty, goodbye Draghi), or else Germany will no longer be able to support the rest of Europe.
Catalonia might vote for independence, but they don’t have a plan to keep it if they get it.
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Well said. This silly drivel from these Catalan liberals will lead to MORE chaos then less. Do a visit with the local populations of the independent republics, now countries, of former Yugoslavia. More corruption and young folks leaving by the thousands because of no opportunity. I was there several years ago because family comes from there.
I agree with Rajoy’s response.
Regarding California succeeding? You really think D.C. will allow this to happen? How naive! You think that those of us who are against this would sit idly by and let this happen? No, we would take arms and support our Federal Government to crush any secession. Not a fan of the Feds, but I know they are a lesser evil than California State government. Interesting times await us in America and a second Civil War will see blood to the knees.
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I gave my sort of reply to most of that further down, so to the question of EU… if they actually have sovereignty recognised ( you know how hard that is internationally) then they will not lose it by joining EU anymore than any other EU country ( ok so that is not positive EXCEPT that EU may be the body that quietly arranges for international recognition of Cataluña… Cataluña needs EU for that). Being in EU opens up pre-exiting trade for Cataluña. However Spain may block negotiations of accession… but Spain would be facing bankruptcy also at this point and so be open to pressure maybe. This is all academic though, as EU would not risk its existence, so either there is a “scheme” with Spain…I don’t think so, or we are going to watch Spain damaged politically by its reaction to Cataluña, a long attrition…until maybe one day it does cede.
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I would caution you on gleaning much from the few cherry-picked quotes from people in Barcelona – an area that actually DOESN’T support independence.
The areas supporting the independence movement are outside the cities where the reporters are too lazy to go and ask – instead they get man-in-the-street crapola from the un- or under-employed and choose the standard leftist trope to publish. There is no indication that their support for independence is for the same reasons as the bulk of the people supporting it in the outlying areas.
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My subdivision is holding an independence vote next week. We will stop paying city taxes and contract out our services. Everyone is being issued an AK-47 and glock, so we have no need for police protection. We are a gated community now and the rest of the world can …..
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If only we lived in a society that free….
But instead, we have no more freedom to disassociate, than Antebellum cotton pickers had. And relative to Massa, we are no better armed than they were, either. Hence, have no more say on the matter. Or any other matter. For that matter.
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Maybe the Catalans will vote the same way as the Scots.
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“Prime minister Rajoy is telling Catalonians not to vote because it is illegal.”
We mustn’t break any laws now people!
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Read the Spanish Constitution: it des not grant entities the right to secede. It does say that the Congress (Cortes) has full control over all entities except where the Congress grants certain autonomous acts. It’s ignorant in the extreme to pretend that Catalonia has any right of secession under the Constitution.
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spain is therefore a totalitarian tyranny ?
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Revolutions begin by ignoring the old rules.
Read the Illinois Constitution: it basically suspends mathematics to guarantee public employee pensions. No sane person would follow such “rules” without a gun pointed at their head.
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“What’s Spain going to do to stop the referendum? Send in the troops?”
I am sure there are plans for that if stuffing the ballot boxes fails to suppress the “people”.
Remember the 1930’s in Spain.
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What is Catalonia going to do to implement the referendum if they win? Threaten to hold their breath unless mommy buys them all the toys on their list?
Reading the quotes from the pro-independence babies tells me they really haven’t thought things through. They don’t have a coherent plan to govern — we could argue the merits of such a plan if they had one.
I understand the 78 year old’s frustration with sending money to Madrid and getting little/nothing in return. But frustration is not a plan. Make the government bigger/smaller. Send in a businessman / real estate tycoon to disrupt the cushy political lifestyle. It may or may not work, but its an idea that hasn’t been tried.
The twenty somethings sound like cult members. The socialist teacher doesn’t say who’s money she wants to steal to prop up her socialist ideas — Catalonia doesn’t have oil reserves like Venezeula did.
The children are running away from home and plan to live in their tree fort. It is going to get cold tonight. They don’t even have blankets, never mind a way to feed / support themselves. The whole thing is absurd
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The Catalan parlament has set up a parallel set of institutions ready for implementation…systems of governance, statistical, finance, legal. They have done this quietly over the space of years. Cataluña is a productive region, France is very involved in its finance. Nothing like this goes on without major planning and backing, we are talking of potentially bankrupting a country in Europe, not some naive half hatched youth protest… public opinion is the legitimiser and so the whole project revolves around it, but to take one facet of sentiment or another as demonstration of how that project is constructed will not give a clear picture.
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@Mish
I’m going to try to keep you honest…
1) The “study” you are using ” Centre d’Estudis d’Opinió” happens to be commissioned and paid by the Catalan government (you know the ones pushing for independence). I find it amazing that a guy like you that criticized every pool in the US election doesn’t take the time to mention this…
2) %60 of all goods exported by Catalonia go to the rest of Spain. I wonder who is going to replace that market
3) “Spain Threatens to Arrest Mayors in Favor of Vote” And the Catalonian government has told the Alcaldes they must support the vote even if they don’t like it or else!
4) The CEOE (Confederación Española de Organizaciones Empresariales) is already on record saying that many of its members will leave the region since it will not be economically viable for its members.
5) “I am talking of course about the Boston Tea Party and subsequent US independence from Britain via the American Revolution” This for sure the most dishonest of your comments. I give you a pass on Spain because Americans in general are very ignorant of other countries histories. However, you well know that the US was a colony and not part of England. If you were an honest person and still want to draw a parallel then the historic event in the US that most resembles what Catalonia wants to do is equivalent of when the South seceded from the Union.
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I quoted on a poll shown by Politico. I also noted more recent polls that showed far less support for independence. That said, if this was going to be a huge NO Vote, they would be foolish to have it. They must expect a win. Rajoy may personally be responsible as I noted.
The best example may well be Crimea. I support the decision in Crimea.
Mish
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There won’t be a vote. The win will be in having it stopped. I think that if there were a free and open vote that the choice would be no to independence. Why? Because Spain would only allow a vote if the existing arguments had been settled…at which point there would not be a call for a vote. As to settle the arguments would send Cataluña further towards independence, too close to it for Spain’s comfort, Spain will not cede further power. Catch 22. Unfortunately Spain has not been very diplomatic, has worked to reinforce control, control ceded in accession to EU, control ceded by decentralising finance of the Peseta to the Euro, which also helped lead to Spain’s economic and political malaise. Maybe Cataluña is one of few vestiges left of being able to demonstrate an act of sovereignty to satisfy the public, or maybe it is a turning point with regards to EU. Who knows.
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The points about ceded authority to the EU is very apt.
There comes a point at which “regions” don’t mean anything as they are regions of the EU not of an “in name only” nation state that has given border, currency, trade control +++ away to a 3rd party.
If a country no longer controls it borders, trade, currency and, in future, defence – is it a country any longer?
Spain – do you really exist in practice outside your own heads?
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” the US was a colony and not part of England. ”
A distinction without a difference.
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Here are two videos that I hope explain the difference between Cataluña and Spain somehow. I don’t mean to portray one more right or wrong. The first is Els Segadors, the Catalan anthem.
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And here is a Spanish military parade. The Civil Guard has the highest popular rating of all Spanish institutions, though this parade is the Legion. You can understand the sense of organisation and duty from it maybe.
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Foreign legion is a very specific army branch in France, Spain, Belgium and other european countries, there is an abundant literature about them all, this peculiar ( and bravest) army branch doesn´t represent european armies…or spanish army either.
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“Vote? Vote? We don’t need no stinking vote.” TPTB
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If there were still survivors from the Spanish civil war around, what woulda they think?
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It’s really a region of the EU wanting to separate from another region of the EU.
Neither are truly sovereign states as neither has its own currency or border control.
Let the EU broker a deal between 2 of its regions.
I’m sure they can manage that quickly and easily.
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Any impact on the banks in either region?
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If Catalonia gains independence, it is totally screwed. If Catalonia remains within Spain, a country beholden to the usual $u$pects, with ever growing, unsustainable debt despite brutal austerity cuts, it will also be royally screwed. Thus, for many, it is better to be screwed by Barcelona instead of by Madrid. There is at least a faint ray of hope things just might be better after the initial pain of independence.
The biggest problem would be for Spain as even Mood’s has pointed out. The Spaniards can fume and boycott Catalan products but the Catalans can also do the same and boycott Spaniards products. The Spanish economy, despite whatever the government might say, is and will be in a bad way. A Catalan boycott would have a devastating effect on the moribund economy in Deep Spain. The Spaniards on an individual level are some of the funnest, nicest people on earth but they are disastrous administrators although I am not convinced that Catalans are much better.
The other big problem for Spain is the Basque Country (with or without Navarre). I live in the Basque Country and so know what I am talking about. Nationalism here is far stronger than in Catalonia as evidenced by recent elections , and even things such as our own phone company, Basque trade unions, etc. The only thing the Catalans have over us is that their language is far stronger than ours though there are encouraging trends.
Spain knows that without Catalonia and the Basque Country, Spain will be more like a huge Portugal except at least the Portuguese are better at languages than Spaniards who now can’t even emigrate to other Spanish-speaking countries which are even worse off or Germany. Of course, those who are well educated can emigrate and are doing so but education in Deep Spain has never been a priority outside of the gentry and now the very high employment, especially of the youth, is telling.
There is talk that if Catalonia makes, that is, if Cataluña actually gets to be Catalunya, the Basque Country will soon follow. The special economic agreement allowing for most taxes to stay within the Basque Country has kept things quiet but the example of Catalonia becoming Catalunya is compelling. My dream is the País Vasco becoming Euskal Herria .
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Most of your comment are false statements, if you are thinking about your Euskal Herria…better seat, 18% of basque people thinks is feasible…California has better numbers
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@Advill : I don’t understand “better seat”. Please you could write in normal English so that we can actually understand what you mean.
Euskal Herria is Basque for “the Basque Country “, nothing more, nothing else and so, come what may, Euskal Herria will always be around . I don’t know where you got your 18% figure but it is probably from the same idiots that have managed to convince at 47% of Catalans that Spain is a sinking ship.
You say ” most of my comment (sic) are false statements ” and yet, predictably, fail to address which comments are false. So typical of a Spanish nationalist troll.
Young Basques who have traveled can see that Spain means little in the world and that in places such as Europe, Africa, or Asia, it is English rather than Spanish or French that matters.
We can see that even a small country can do well provided it is administrated properly, something which Spain is not. Thank God the Basque Country is not administered by the likes of any of the Spanish police political parties. The three yea that the Spanish Socialist Workers’ Party were disastrous and the result of flagrant manipulation.
The smallest country in the European Union has the highest per capita income: Luxembourg. Really, would Luxembourg be better off if it were part of Germany or even France? I don’t think so. A small country like the Basque Country would be better off alone than with a big “loser country” like Spain.
We shall wait for Catalonia to become Catalunya instead of Cataluña and it will be our turn. It will be time for the “País Vasco” to become ” Euskal Herria” ! Bye bye Spain!
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Just waiting for the Kristallnacht, aren’t you?
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Hans-Hermann Hoppe:
https://mises.org/blog/put-your-hope-radical-decentralization
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Thank you for that link and I would largely agree except I don’t see it as US/FED domination etc.
Quite the opposite, I see the EU setting to confront the US in all areas and ultimately leading to conflict with the US or Russia or some other power.
The old Fanco-German slaughter will be replaced by EU (Franco-German alliance) vs some other power slaughter.
It will take upon itself the mantle once worn by the old Soviet Union. Eastern European countries will just swap one master for another.
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Dear Mish,
Are you in favor of kiliing readheads if that is what citizens vote?
Hitler and Hugo Chavez were elected in freer elections than 1-O.
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Of course not – and that is an asinine question
1. Laws cannot violate property right
2. On one can own, kill, or harm anyone else
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You say property right, what about that in national level?….wake up!
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So now laws cannot violate property rights? Where does that happen? In Liberland? And you trust this pro-independence mob who don’t even respect their own Catalonian laws (I am afraid you are missing their everyday tricks) will settle a country where property rights will be defended when they are actually in favor of plunder and confiscation (worse even the one already carry out in Spain). I am sorry to find out you are just a libertarian in theory but a socialist in practice. I am an investor so I have developed a very pragmatic approach to terranal affairs.
What I don’t really understand is the need to take a stance about something you don’t really know about. Sometimes and “I don’t know” is much wiser.
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So now laws cannot violate property rights? Where does that happen?
I am sorry to find out you are just a libertarian in theory but a socialist in practice. I am an investor so I have developed a very pragmatic approach to terranal affairs.
It didn’t. It was a response to your asinine question “Are you in favor of killing redheads if that is what citizens vote?”
If you think I am socialist you are F*ing nuts. Now stop the stupidity.
Mish
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What could be more politically correct than Catalonian independence? White Catalonia slaves demand freedom from brown slave masters in Madrid. American taxpayers may next demand freedom from welfare bondage and affirmative action. No man should be forced to work for another man.
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“What’s Spain going to do to stop the referendum? Send in the troops?”
I seem to remember a group of states seceding from the union of states that made up the United States of America.
And the President of the United States sent in troops.
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Would you also be in favour of Hitler if hundreds of thousands took to the streets to support the nazi regime? That would be democracy, wouldn’t it? Hitler also improved the German economy, didn’t he?
No problem. Keep supporting a supremacist, utterly corrupt government (your propaganda sources don’t mention corruption, do they?), consisting of crony socialists and far leftists. Let Spanish non-catalans be expelled, their language and culture be obliterated, muslims be welcome, and pray tell us who is going to keep subsidizing their companies and pay Catalonia’s dire debt.
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Yes Mike, let’s support people breaking the law, threatening those who dare think in a different way, making lists of people, stating wide in the open … “either you are with us or you are against us”, how people are attacked and coerced.
Please excuse if I dare to say that you have apparently never read anything about recent history in Europe and how fascism works and you seem to be some thousand miles away from the place and the reality.
But keep on supporting fascists and if you read the symptoms above it may remind you of another party who used the same tatics in the 30s and 40s in Europe.
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But keep on supporting fascists and if you read the symptoms above it may remind you of another party who used the same tatics in the 30s and 40s in Europe.
It reminds me of Jean Claude Juncker today
“Lie when you have to”
And his speech the other day was a real gem, calling for a European Superstate with its own army
Who are the Fascists in Catalonia?
Include Francisco Franco and his prior impact on forcing regions of Spain together in the discussion
Mish
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Who are the Fascists in Catalonia? If you don’t know that, you are clearly unqualified to have an opinion on this topic.
Just read the messages above from people telling you how those not agreeing to the one and only truth are discriminated, coerced and threatened.
To find the uberfascist, just look for someone who loudly says he’s above the law and he’s an emissary of the people.Of course he has already left written in stone, that he has to be granted with immunity.
It should be easy to find … but of course, quoting studies who are completely biased and paid by those creating the bias is a lot easier. Doing some research is completely overrated these days.
And it seems Franco is even more alive than Elvis … even people who don’t have a clue about Spain mention him on a daily basis, yet he died over 40 years ago.
Incidentally, the regions of Spain were joined as a single Kingdom back in the 15th century. The new Elvis had nothing to do with any joining in the 20th century.
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“If you do not make peaceful revolution possible, you make violent revolution inevitable.”
– John F. Kennedy.
Good luck Catalonians.
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