Barring a mass invasion by Spanish government troops, it appears the vote in Catalonia will take place.
Given the importance of the story, Western media is amazingly silent. Stories are few and far between.
We have not even see Tweet 1 from President Trump. Let’s take a look at the latest news and Tweets that I can find.
US News reports Catalonia Refuses to Give Police Over to Spain
Catalonia’s top security official says the regional government is refusing to hand over control of a regional police force to Spanish central authorities who are trying to stop a referendum on independence.
The announcement by the Catalan interior chief Joaquim Forn followed a move by Spain’s Interior Ministry to take over coordinating all policing efforts to stop the Oct. 1 Catalan independence vote that the Spanish government considers illegal.
The measure would mean that Madrid would send direct orders to the regional Mossos d’Esquadra police, who have been criticized for not cracking down hard enough on preparations for the vote.
Forn said the chief of the Mossos d’Esquadra had expressed his opposition to the measure during a meeting Saturday with the top state prosecutor in Catalonia and chiefs of two other national police forces, the National Police and the Civil Guard.
Forn says “we denounce the attempt by the state to intervene in the police forces of Catalonia.”
Bloomberg reports Spain Rebuffed in Boosting Control Over Catalonia’s Police.
Police in Spain’s rebel region of Catalonia rejected giving more control to the central government in defiance of authorities in Madrid who are trying to suppress an independence referendum on Oct. 1.
The SAP union, the largest trade group for the 17,000-member Mossos d’Esquadra regional force, said it would resist hours after prosecutors Saturday ordered that it accept central-government coordination. The rejection echoed comments by Catalan separatist authorities.
“We don’t accept this interference of the state, jumping over all existing coordination mechanisms,” the region’s Interior Department chief Joaquim Forn said in brief televised comments. “The Mossos won’t renounce exercising their functions in loyalty to the Catalan people.”
Those stories, nearly identical, were from this morning. Here are some key Tweets.
Once again, I fully support the inherent rights of self-determination of the people in any state. Let’s emphasize that in a Tweet.
Mike “Mish” Shedlock
its the ratings problem. hurricanes and trump tweets get ratings, catelan elections do not. you just touche upon one of my biggest qualms of network news. they focus on trivial ratings driven stories and avoid real issues
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Homage to Catalonia!
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Spain then retorted that the Mossos did not guarantee the security of all, is accused of adding oil to the fire (1:19 in link), and a demonstration in support of the Mossos took place later (1:31)
http://www.ara.cat/politica/escorcolls-guardia-civil-contra-referendum_12_1873132669.html
The would be Spanish chief Cobos , and yes this goes back ( ’92) and under different circumstances, was implicated then exonerated on accusations of torture of an ETA prisoner on grounds that evidence was not conclusive enough ( holding nose and covering mouth of hospitalised prisoner). The accusation will be used against him if he is put in charge.
https://elpais.com/diario/1997/11/11/espana/879202808_850215.html
@ 17 000 Mossos , 70 000 Guardia Civil, 100 000 Army are very rough figures for the forces, plus national police force also.
The Guardia Civil are not an average police force, they are para-military and not trained to handle crowds in a way we are used to, nor to carry out routine policing even though they are capable of that ( it is partly to do with the kind of distance they maintain in terms of professionalism etc.) . That is why the riot police have been shipped in, and maybe to cover for if the Mossos refuse to follow instructions.
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NATO memebers will have to very circumspect WRT how this unfolds. If one stands with Caledonia, there’s significant risk of encouraging separatists in one’s own country.
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The UK’s adroit handling of its racist chancers on the make meant that no-one at all of any seriousness stood with Caledonia. Recall that the fools were stopped in their tracks during the referendum on leaving the Union by being asked to answer the question “what currency will you use?”.
That of course was a great pity since the UK would be much better off with Scotland (Caledonia to use its Roman name) out of the Union.
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Power to the people.
We are all Catalans on Oct 1st.
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Tractors for independence.
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Years ago a near zero distribution minor print publication published a list of top ten stupidest congressmen. One of whom immediately called a nationally televised press conference to deny it. There really is no cure for stupid
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Catalans are behaving as if they had already declared independence.
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There is a clause for immediate declaration of independence by the Catalan parlament if the referendum is interrupted. This is where it will get very tense. I expect that Spain will severely disrupt attempts of voting on the day, enough to invalidate any result to anyone or prompt direct declaration of independence …if it gets to that. I think that it is likely the Catalan leadership is arrested beforehand, that it is possible that attempts at arrest will be flash mobbed, and independence declared in the act. What happens after that is not obvious at all. So there is a lot of confidence already, but the end result will depend on how it plays out after…however that happens will not be an easy time.
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Again I ask, if any of the states in the USA were to vote to secede wouldn’t the feds prevent this and does anyone think that would be okay?
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you mean if anyone thing that seceding from the union would be ok or not?
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What I meant was does anyone believe a state in the USA has the right to secede. I don’t think it would be a good idea and I think its agains the constitution, Naturally the govt would intervene in this if it happened. I sympathize with Catalonia but it sounds like they have no legal right to initiate this.
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I’m sure the Feds would meddle.
Anyone should be able to secede. States from the Union, counties and cities from states, neighborhoods from the counties/cities, and households from neighborhoods. Reasonable people can argue teenagers’ seceding from households, is going too far. But that’s about it.
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Yes, and any “war to save the Union” should be declared a criminal act and years afterwards any statues erected to commenorate its perpetrators should be torn down.
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Or better yet; no standing armies available to perpetrate such wars with. And whatever armys there are, get to buy their kit at the same gunshops as anybody else. As the famous, often Washington attributed quote goes; “Government is not reason, it is not eloquence — it is force.”
“Declaring this” and “Judging that” may sound all kinds of cute to the properly well indoctrinated and docile, but faced with asymmetric levels of armament and willingness to use them, none of it means squat.
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That was what the Civil War here in the US was about. States’ rights versus federal overlordship. Essentially. What we in the US ended up with after the end of the war was an over reaching federal government that only won the war because they teamed up with big business (JP Morgan, etc) to win at any cost. And every year since the end of that war the federal govt has gotten bigger and more intrusive in what should be left up to the states.
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In the Treaty of Paris 1783, the British Crown acknowledged the independence of the various colonies as independent states. The representatives of the Congress of the Confederation entered into the various agreements with the British Crown. The individual states then, through the adaptation of the Constitution accepted the United States government as their agent for their affairs. It should be noted that agents can be removed for cause. Hence we have Lincoln’s immediate problem with those states who voted for secession. He had no legal control over their actions. However, South Carolina acted rather stupidly by attacking Fort Sumter allowing Lincoln to legally declare war (with the consent of Congress a few months later) and thus followed the war between the states. It was a war over states rights.
The question is rather any other state not of the original thirteen, other than the state of Texas, who has always had the right, approved by congress, the right to secede from the Union. As for Spain, Catalan is another matter. In my limited knowledge of Spanish history I have not come across the voluntary association of the various states or governments that existed over the historical timeline that describes such an arraignment. Indeed, since the reconquest, various states and territories have been added the the Spanish Kingdom (the Americas being excepted) usually by force. The last voluntary merger was that of Isabel and Ferdinand about 1490. Each monarch brought to the new Spanish Kingdom their respective kingdoms.
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A number of provinces have broken away from Spain. But mostly public schools are worthless propaganda machines designed to output an obedient citizenry suitable for soldiering and drone labor. Hence, almost complete ignorance of, for example, the Eighty Years’ War (1568–1648) of Spain’s Netherlands provinces for independence. Yes, the Netherlands were once Spanish provinces just like Catalonia. But an ignorant media trained in the public schools is blind to history. Since Catalonia is in essence a “cash cow” being milked by the Spanish central government, expect Madrid to make Catalonian independence a long drawn-out affair akin to the Eighty Years’ War. If Catalonia was a poor province and a drain on central government resources, then Catalonian sovereignty would have happened alongside the dissolution of Yugoslavia into separate independent countries. Profit-loss equation for central government is all you need to know. Giving up a “cash cow” without a fight would be either idiotic or enlightened, neither of which characterize Madrid.
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I do worry about a civil war. The last one was quite nasty and led to a 35 year dictatorship.
However, looking at the economic machinations out of Madrid, I do understand their feelings.
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You know the irony of this is Catalonia wants to become a separate state under the EU. What’s the point of succession, only to voluntarily chain themselves to something worse. Maybe they should claim neutrality status like Switzerland. What happens in Barcelona, stays in Barcelona. World leaders will love it!
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Totally correct.
Instead of money going direct to Spain from Catalonia it will go to the EU (they take a cut) then to Spain.
Catalonia will have no currency control and no birder control.
The Spanish will do as they wish and can ship in as many people as they wish to cause trouble.
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I suspect that once Catalonia achieves independence, they would resent the EU stealing their money (a major complaint against Madrid) and opt out or never opt in the first place. But for now being pro-EU is a smart position for Catalonia to take, hoping EU will remain neutral in the dispute. Before this is all over the EU could field an army, and then Catalonia would face a multi-front war for independence. Also, for a small isolated country surrounded by the EU empire, being in the EU might make strategic sense (unless they can become as strong as Switzerland with its military and currency). Of course, by the time Catalonia achieves independence the Gaullist alternative of strong independent nation-states from the UK to the Urals could supplant the EU. Thus, many ways this could play out. But, like the Netherlands, if Catalonians want independence from Spain bad enough, expect it to happen eventually.
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Maybe he was using reverse psychology, a la Groucho Marx’s “I wouldn’t join any club that would have me,” but in some respects, Juncker may have done Catalonia a favour by stating that they would not automatically qualify for entry into the EU.
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No doubt Juncker was being a formal and precise bureaucrat, and simply meant that first their entry application had to be approved by member vote and their entry fee check to the EU not bounce. I doubt the EU would refuse a “cash cow” (money machine) like Catalonia. If the EU refused to accept Catalonia’s money, then Turkey, Russia, China, the BRICs, etc. would welcome their struggle for liberation and independence and be good trading partners.
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Is the vote clear on in or out of EU?
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A seperate Cataluña would HAVE TO make arrangements with EU. I don’t expect it would be a fully independent state for long, if at all, maybe EEA for a while, but if you look at EU influence in Cataluña, how EU consumes anything of worth, Cataluña is most likely to end up in EU if it becomes independent… maybe temporary then full after a decade. Cataluña would actually have to fight politically to stay out of EU.
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Each and every day the world is full of surprises. .
But one thing that never changes is that power settles everything.
I support the Catalan’s right to self-determination.
Unfortunately their hopes are going to get steamrolled.
Any resistance will be dealt with swiftly and decisively by the NWO.
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Simon Sebag Montefiore’s 3 Series on Spain’s bloody past before & afterFerdinand & Isabella’s autodafés, Franco etc.i tells it all BBC4iPlayer if you have a UK contact who
can trasmit
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I don’t understand this obsession with Catalon seceding from Spain. The Catalons do not have a coherent plan, or even rough idea, to make their new country work. Most seem to be substituting one unaccountable, uncaring bureaucracy (Brussels) — for their current unaccountable, uncaring bureaucracy. How is that better?
The problem, according to the deplorables who voted for Trump, and the problem according to the Catalonians rallying for independence — is the arrogance of central bureaucracy. The total lack of accountability. Is there any US citizen reading this blog that thinks they wouldn’t already be in jail if they had pulled the same crimes as Hilary Clinton did? How about the unelected bureaucrats at CIA / NSA who decided the Constitution doesn’t apply to them? How about Loius Lerner using the IRS to go after Obama’s political enemies?
Meanwhile we read about uncaring bureaucrats shutting down some little child’s lemonade stand, while others complain about their lucrative pensions and their health care system. The public doesn’t get a pension, and our health care system is unaffordable and getting worse every year.
I understand why Catalonians are angry about the uncaring bureaucrats in Madrid. Good for them, and I support that part. Their so-called solution makes no sense. Have an independent Catalon or don’t — but what are they doing to make their government (whichever one they vote for) accountable to them?
Brussels doesn’t care about Catalon anymore than Madrid. Washington DC bureaucrats always take care of themselves, and to h#ll with the public they work for. Assuming they “win”, I don’t see how this Catalon independence nonsense changes that reality.
Go ahead and secede from Spain (or don’t) — but address the underlying problem whichever way you go.
And someone tell Trump that he works for the deplorables. Get rid of Obamacare and get rid of insubordinate employees in Congress — preferably all of them.
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Spain holds the trump cards for it does not have to prevent all voting, rather just do sufficient to make obvious that any vote lacks legitimacy. Recall that so far as we all know, there is no large majority of residents of Catalunya in favour of independence and they could even be in a minority.
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What should trump tweet? Should the US mettle? Should we engage in nation building?
This is none of our business, period. Who cares what they all do? Frankly, it looks like the start of a civil war. We have no dog in this hunt.
Besides, Spanin will crush the “uprising”, they have no choice.
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What should Trump Tweet?
In aggregate it may be best he stops all Tweets until he thinks first and Tweets second.
But in this case, it is amusing he has no opinion when he seems to have one on everything else.
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dude…you got another week
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Civil disobedience usually achieves a result without a vote.
It works both ways, for or against Spain. See who wins.
Another thought, if the EU can’t pour oil on these troubled waters it is totally useless. When a real crisis arrives what will they do?
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STORM IN A TEACUP.
Catalonia gives money to Spain, some comes back, any left-over goes to EU.
Alternative (call it independance)……..Catalonia gives money to EU, some comes back, any left-over goes to Spain.
WANT INDEPENDANCE?
Get your own currency, border control and army otherwise be serfs.
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At least they have a flag and language, it’s a start.
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There are many forms of nation. Andorra is quite a distinct example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andorra
Though WW1 didn’t end for them till 1958.
Go figure what that all adds up to.
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We may end up with a Nagorno-Karabakh- or Transnistria-style situation, i.e., a de facto but unrecognized independent state.
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So much for gun control. You cannot control the populace when the police with guns also support the people. Now both sides can shoot back. EU rolls over on this one or we may be looking at another Spanish civil war.
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Riot police disembark equipment
While a small Spanish nationalist protest greet Podemos ( left Cat. sympathisers) in Aragon ( neighbouring region to Cataluña) , Podemos escorted out by police. These are the sort of left/right confrontations that might expand and become violent in Spain
http://www.naciodigital.cat/noticia/138993/centenars/ultres/assetgen/assemblea/electes/arago/policia/alerta/falta/reforcos
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By the way, this TLS piece: https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/public/catalonia-referendum-kamen/ is a useful corrective on all the knee-jerk pro-Catalonia emotion. It seems the actions of the catalonian government itself have been very questionable. Secret voting lists??? The mind boggles.
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For Catalans it is not knee jerk, this has been taking direction for years. That said it is still 50/50 in Cataluña, and in terms of behaviour, Spain and the Catalan regional authorities can be considered as bad as each other on many levels. That just leaves the constitutional / ethical question on self determination… and clearly those can be as much sentiment driven as anything else. The reason there is not much pro-Spain talk is simply because it assumes itself to be guarantor and in charge already….what do you say to that as it just is.
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I meant the knee-jerk reactions of foreigners.
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Foreigners are generally uninformed because you have to actually live somewhere for a while before you can understand the “attitudes”. There is no easy way to prove or translate them to media in a way that can be understood or followed by people who don’t know… it ends up sounding like just rhetoric or slander. So foreigners are left with a surface appearance to react to, they know something is up but can only pin it by themes they can relate to ( freedom of expression etc.) . Same for many events in the world, we sit at home, enjoy the show, and live in at least part illusion. If you were a Catalan or Spaniard living this the sensations they experience are much more powerful and immediate. That is why those that play down the event as only a show are missing something, it is very real.
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“Given the importance of the story, Western media is amazingly silent. Stories are few and far between.”
It’s all about propaganda, not news. Otherwise we would be informed.
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Aaaaaawh…..
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What happens if California decides to quit?
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The day ” New California” secedes from the union is the day 75% (by land mass) secedes from them and rejoins the union as a new state.
Taking with them most of the power plants, food production and water.
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Who will serve in the California Defense Forces?The snowflakes in LA and SF.
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Catalonia,is it a matter of economics or over zealous politicians? Either way it is none of my business. Interfering in other peoples affair can result in a bloody nose.
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You should know any “news” that opposes a one world government trend is never going to reported!
Sent from my iPad
>
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I thought Mish and commenters of this blog essentially stood for freedom. How wrong I was. The issue in Catalonia is not one of independence, but freedom. About half the population of the region are under a de facto corrupt dictatorship, including Goebbelsian propaganda machines and brown-shirt-like violence in various degrees. Childish romanticism is OK, but thousands of companies and residents have already exiled themselves, and a Kristallnacht is not to be excluded. It has happened before in the 1930s. Just read Orwell’s Homage to Catalonia.
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You know the direction Spain is going if it does not pull itself together, what you describe I have experienced in other socialist parts of Spain. Maybe you should understand the referendum as one that Spain is taking, on how nationalistic or traditional it is or should be. Otherwise in five or ten years or sooner it will not be replying this way but allowing referendums on secession, will be quietly dismantled… it is not far off that in some ways. Maybe all that matters is that the process of national dissolution is peaceful, maybe all that matters is that Spain chooses to rebuild and again prove itself as a nation, that is only up to the Spanish, but you cannot expect others will not take sides or influence as suits them – they are free to, and the seperatists know how to present their story, so that and whereas Spain is forced to defend its own one.
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Crysangle, You are right you can’t control what others think. But Spanish pro market advocates kind of feel betrayed is this forum specially because we see Mish has no basic understanding of the matter. Would he like to be living in a place that gains independency and then citizens there start losing all kind of rights even their lives? If he defends this I guess. Sorry but I value more my (property) rights than some romantic version of voting.
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What a bunch of BS
In 2010, the Spanish constitutional court annulled a large part of the Catalan statute of autonomy negotiated between Catalonia and the previous prime minister, José Luis Zapatero.
The ruling by the court – whose current president is a former activist for Rajoy’s conservative Popular party – showed contempt for the legitimacy of the statute of autonomy, which had been approved by both the Catalan and Spanish parliaments, and also by the Catalan citizens through a referendum. More than a million people marched against this annulment in Barcelona in July 2010. Since then, millions more Catalan citizens have taken peacefully to the streets in defence of self-rule and the right to decide on their political future.
Rajoy sought that reversal
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It is very complex, so whatever anyone’s view it is likely to be unacceptable to another’s, on whatever grounds of argument. For instance, I could side with either of the above arguments, or oppose them both, using proper examples. I try to link in as much reference material to bring in a sense of what is happening, sometimes that will look like taking sides, that is not my intention. A stable market will be one people are happy to accept, whether it is Spain as is or a seperate Cataluña. If they are not happy they will try to change it, that would include in Cataluña if it were a separate state. Spain is guarantor of the current framework. Does that make it responsible for there being a seperatist bid, or for making sure that does not occur ? It is not as obvious as it would seem, very complex, and choice depends on how, and to what , you place first loyalty. Here is a clip of Spanish sending off the police from different regions to Cataluña
http://www.naciodigital.cat/noticia/139094/video/ellos/huelva/envalenteix/guardies/civils/enviats/aturar/1-o?rlc=p1
Clear how partisan the referendum is becoming.
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There are news stories of propaganda comment bots and commentators. Some of those stories seem to be one finger pointing else ware and four back at their side.
If you want to see it clearly with out getting emotional, read a foreign news outlet and look at the comments. Ask your self would their citizens comment that way?
Maybe soon, if it gets more endemic, it will be best to skip reading comments just like I have given up reading youtube comments and have blocked them.
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Oh, you can save a lot of time by ignoring the zero hedge commenters and martial propagandist commenters too.
You can be happier avoiding the news selection at xxudgereport.
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For sure there is a lot of propaganda, most of it pro-independence. That is what you would expect when people are out to change the status quo, they set out to promote their cause. So far I think most of it is kept within reason, as in a simple message with what is available to support that. It does not address the deeper arguments, as to pro-independence supporters that is what the referendum is there to do.
So this is why judgement is all centered on the presumed right to hold referendum and how Spain reacts to that.
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@Mish
Let me set the facts straight: Your headline is wrong. This is the last on the subject:
“At first, Catalan interior chief Joaquim Forn said on Saturday his rebel administration rejected a national prosecutor’s order for central-government coordination of police in the run-up to the Oct. 1 vote. Hours later, Catalan police managers issued an internal memo saying that they’ll keep obeying orders from prosecutors and judges.”
Secondly, while about %50 of the Catalanes may want to form their own state, %65 have indicated that this referendum is illegal and its results should not be recognized by any nation (let alone EU)
To understand what is going on you need to understand what the main actors of the referendum stand for. For that I recommend you read what one of the candidate from the pro-independence party has said.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/09/catalonia-independence-spain-referendum
This is one his final comment:
“In Marx at the Margins, Kevin B. Anderson asserts that Marx’s internationalism was never conceived abstractly but, as can be seen in his support for Irish and Polish emancipation, took very concrete forms. Hopefully you will begin to apply the same rigor to analyze the national question as you have in your work on political economy because you cannot hope to move beyond abstractions towards the concrete historical reality of our democratic revolution while you continue to evoke the name of Jordi Pujol [historic leader of the Catalan center-right].”
So in my opinion, what CUP wants is to form a “communist utopia” in Europe. Lacking the means and votes to do this in Spain they opt to do it in Cataluña where they can use the independence movement to get to power and expand to the rest of Spain. Yes expand, in case you don’t know this, CUP is already advocating for the annexation of Valencia for instance (on their own words):
http://www.elmundo.es/comunidad-valenciana/2017/09/14/59b98017e5fdea3e728b465c.html
BTW if anyone here thinks that an independent Cataluña will be prosperous or part of the EU then be ready to be disappointed. If the CUP (Marxists) get their way, they will be assure to control power for many years (a la Chavez in Venezuela and with the same policies). Do any of the commentators here (or Mish) actually thinks that Cataluña will remain an industrial “powerhouse” under such type of government? The exodus of industry out of Cataluña (and good paying jobs) will be epic.
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I think the Spanish socialists are nut cases
More accurately that is how I feel about socialists in general.
I am well aware that Catalonia wants to stay in the EU and in the Eurozone.
Akk of this is irrelevant.
The election transcends illegality. Yes it is illegal. I do not give a rat’s ass.
Slavery was once legal.
We are talking about the right of self-determination, regardless of what you or I think of the actual political positions.
Mish
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” Hours later, Catalan police managers issued an internal memo saying that they’ll keep obeying orders from prosecutors and judges.”
Not same as Cobos, a false comparison.
En la Generalitat se ha impuesto una especie de doble discurso: el político, que habla directamente de no aceptación de las órdenes, y el policial, que busca la vía legal para no tener que hacerlo, y recuerda que los Mossos acatan cualquier orden que llegue de la fiscalía.
ElPais.
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“Early in life I have noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper, but in Spain, for the first time, I saw newspaper reports which did not bear any relation to the facts, not even the relationship which is implied in an ordinary lie. I saw great battles reported where there had been no fighting, and complete silence where hundreds of men had been killed. I saw troops who had fought bravely denounced as cowards and traitors, and others who had never seen a shot fired hailed as the heroes of imaginary victories; and I saw newspapers in London retailing these lies and eager intellectuals building emotional superstructures over events that had never happened. I saw, in fact, history being written not in terms of what happened but of what ought to have happened according to various ‘party lines’”
G. Orwell: http://orwell.ru/library/essays/Spanish_War/english/esw_1
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What’s new.
Whomever controls the MSM & Google search result controls the sheep today.
Question everything.
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Bueno, tambien existen ellos que no mezclan palabras .
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Free tweetie trends in Spain
https://twitter.com/hashtag/freepiolin?vertical=default&src=tren
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Reblogged this on World4Justice : NOW! Lobby Forum..
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“It’s the Russians” out to destabilise Europe.
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/09/24/actualidad/1506277954_690596.html
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Mish,
I am sorry for you. Your sources have no credibility. Assange’s tweets are completely distorted. Could you please show me any proof -photo or video- of the Spanish repression?
Your are contributing to propaganda you don’t seem to realize about it.
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Assange is a hero. Don’t let your views of him distort reality.
Want repression links? Try a simple search
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&q=spanish+repression+franco+catalonia%5D&oq=spanish+repression+franco+catalonia%5D&gs_l=psy-ab.3…1212.14805.0.14825.41.40.0.0.0.0.143.3773.22j15.37.0….0…1.1.64.psy-ab..4.34.3433.0..0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i22i30k1j33i160k1j33i21k1j33i22i29i30k1.0.ZTFOTmoFsCI
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I am talking about the current goverment and Catalonia not Franco’s regime. Came on. You can do better. It seems you are just looking for confrontation. Just because Assange did something good he should not be allow to spread all kind fo hoaxes. You seem to old to buy he is a hero now. Unfortunately, I am sure living in the Ecuador embassy, and been harrased for that long is affecting his mental health.
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Current govt? OK!
Look no further than Rajoy undoing a national referendum giving Catalonia more rights.
It’s amusing that I have to give you a lesson in Spanish politics.
Rajoy did this to himself.
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In 2010, the Spanish constitutional court annulled a large part of the Catalan statute of autonomy negotiated between Catalonia and the previous prime minister, José Luis Zapatero.
The ruling by the court – whose current president is a former activist for Rajoy’s conservative Popular party – showed contempt for the legitimacy of the statute of autonomy, which had been approved by both the Catalan and Spanish parliaments, and also by the Catalan citizens through a referendum. More than a million people marched against this annulment in Barcelona in July 2010. Since then, millions more Catalan citizens have taken peacefully to the streets in defence of self-rule and the right to decide on their political future.
Rajoy sought that reversal did he not?
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So no video, no photo showing repression… just hot air. You just seem to know more about Spanish Law than the Constitutional Court. By the way the court just abolished 14 of 223 articles. If you ask any of protesters about the content of the 14 articles they would not be able to give you an answer. Have you ever been in Spain? Barcelona? Madrid? You might be surprised of the repressed we are…
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If Madrid is repressed, perhaps it should break away too.
Look – I am tired of arguing with people who are totally clueless about what this is all about: Right of self-determination
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According to Spain the repression by Catalan authority is what justifies sending a large police force
http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20170926/431574737637/pp-refuerzos-policiales-violencia-calles-barcelona.html
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If a policeman shoots a crook here in Spain he is usually going to get it. They are not as trigger happy as in your country.
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I do not doubt that for a second.
Moreover, both parties in the US are warmongers.
But what does that have to do with the question at hand?
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@anonymous – to libertarians the Spanish state is repressive because libertarians believe in maximum say to the individual. The closer the representation the better. It is an ideal that they believe should be allowed at every opportunity. So I think Mish is taking the Catalan referendum as a clear expression of that. So far there has been very little police repression of the citizenry over the referendum , only political repression sanctioned by law. That is likely to change when citizens are not allowed to put a piece of paper in a box, and it is not likely to look good for Spain , a few million people saying “we don’t want to be under Spanish law” … and Spain saying ” you have no choice, that is Spanish law”. To a libertarian that is repressive.
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Dear Crysangle,
Libertarians, I am one myself, believe in maximum (property) rights. Voting does not guarantee them. I also believe in the right of self-determination. Catalan Nationalist don’t: The don’t recognize that right to smaller units of decision within their territory. They are using voting just as a tool for their ends: An independent Catalonia where property rights are diminished. It is all about undertanding. Would you support voting for independence if you live that territory? The Catalan governemnt passed a law without enough votes at the Catalan Congress this month. Do you really think they believe in voting? This is not about some dogmatic rights but about foresighting and confirmation bias: Good wise traders versus bad blind traders. Mish’s posts regarding this issue are just ‘looking at the speck in someone else’s eye (Spain) and failing to see the plank in our own eye (Catalonia)’
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Where I wrote Catalonia I meant National Catalanists.
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…out of familiarity and respect I know who I would trust most, but for a Catalan their choice might be different…if I lived in Cataluña my choice might even be different, but as guiri it is not up to me to choose.
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I don’t give a damn what the plank is as long as it does not violate property rights
If California or Texas want to declare independence I would say go ahead.
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I do not know what I would vote if I lived there (hint, I have never voted, but on a clear single question I might, but I prefer to be outside of politics, in neutral territory as far as possible, just narrating my observations ). The problem with the referendum is the same as with all majority politics – people vote towards more benefits without looking at who pays. The guarantee of rights… well socialists like the theme, but I don’t know of a government that respects them with regards to property ( e.g. taxation) . Who guarantees them more can become a show of force between two suitors…maybe that is where we are at?
There is outside backing to the referendum, we don’t know clearly who, it would be good to find out… I think Spain would find it is caught in a matrix that it might not want to be, that has influence over it, that it cannot control.
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There are so many links from here to deceptive propaganda and repeating of what was read rather than critically evaluating the contents of those links and sources.
An enormous amount was from the twitter and the twitters links.
Now, I have to question how much here is purposed for propaganda? Is the function of this article and or comments to link to all of that stuff?
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I don’t know if you refer to my links, but if so I have no direct contact or co-ordination with Mish, just what you see here. Mish is pro-referendum without doubt, me I just recognise that there is a problem with how Spain is governed or arranged, with a part of the population, and it is leading to revolt and counter-revolt. What I put down as links are circumstances that demonstrate the tensions and points of view at personal levels. The Spanish side is simple – it is illegal, I get that. What do you want me to post, a copy of the constitution? For the corruption, hypocrisy, or bad attitude in any bureaucracy, I could fill the comments section on Cataluña, or Spain, or EU. ERC, CUP, PP, Podemos, ANC, PSOE, France, J.p.Si, Ciudadanos even, etc. etc. and get nowhere.
So what we have is what goes on at ground level, and sure, Spaniards will feel insulted by it, I cannot change that. If you are interested in resolving this you have to look deeply at who or what is behind it, you have to do serious political research on who is encouraging Catalan independence and why, and outside of the divisive rhetoric. That also means studying where Spain’s attitude is not helpful, or up to date with modern reality ( media, social expectations, historic claims etc.) , even if that is regards only a part of the nation. Catalans won’t “go away” without taking their territory with them.
Europe, Spain, is in flux now for a decade, these are testing times.
Saludos.
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Or
http://www.eldiario.es/catalunya/politica/MINUTO-Diada_13_685361458_12558.html
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If Catalonia gains it independence, would it stay in the EU?
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I do not really know the answer.
Yet a vote for independence should be just that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_the_Initiation_of_the_Process_of_Independence_of_Catalonia
‘Question
The question of the referendum is “Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?”.’
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017
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