Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy, the man who said there would not be a vote, now has to face the facts: 90% Voted for Independence.
- 90% of the 2.26 million Catalans who voted on Sunday voted in favour of independence, according to preliminary results released by the region’s government. The region has 5.3 million voters. Officials said 770,000 votes were lost due to disruption which resulted in polling stations being raided by Spanish police.
- Carles Puigdemont, Catalan’s leader, announced in a televised statement that the region had earned the right to become an independent state and that results would be passed the region’s parliament in the coming days.
This video of Madrid thugs stomping on people attempting to vote is worth a replay
Dear PM Rajoy, Here are the Results
- Despite the hundreds of thousands of police goons you sent in to stop the vote, a vote did indeed take place.
- With 90% of the vote in, over 2,020,144 voted for independence.
- Only 176,565, were against.
- Your thugs seized another 770,000 ballots, the vast majority of which were undoubtedly in favor of independence.
- 5.3 million were eligible to vote, and over 50% tried, despite your thug actions.
Dear PM Rajoy, Please Resign
Dear Rajoy, your career is over. Please resign before you are booted out.
But before you go, please take a look at For All the World to See: Police Brutality Videos and Images in Catalonia, then apologize.
Mike “Mish” Shedlock
“Though the mills of God grind slowly; Yet they grind exceeding small;
Though with patience He stands waiting, With exactness grinds He all.”
(unknown poet, translated by Plutarch)
LikeLiked by 2 people
Hey Sleekster, I think you’ve got a typo there… should read “Though the mills of Gov grind slowly; Yet they grind exceeding small; Though with violence he stands waiting, With exactness grinds he all.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
Are YOU ready for “revolution” ?
God help us all.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Indeed, that could very well be next. Seeing the police using real bullets would not be surprising in the least.
Odd as this may seem, those who get their news from MSNBC will remain entirely unaware of this for sometime into the future. If you search their website for Catalonia, all you get in a 2011 article about Homer Simpson and a 2016 article about the 80th anniversary of the Spanish Civil War. This is remarkable, amazing, and sad. Regardless of how one feels about the situation in Catalonia, no one can deny that it is news. How can MSNBC possibly justify pretending it is not going on? Every other news service I checked has pages of stories about it.
Yes, I know that in a recent survey, MSNBC had the highest percentage of opinion, and the lowest percentage of actual news of any news service, but until now it never dawned on me that they omit the news entirely.
LikeLiked by 1 person
seriously, why attempt to obtain news from corporate run “news” media?
LikeLiked by 1 person
For the sole purpose of comparing coverage by different “news” media. Prior to the comparison, it never dawned on me that anyone even pretending to provide news coverage would totally miss a story like this.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Mario time to get your payoff from the banking cartel. Maybe you can meet some of the Rothchilds you work for.
ps use some of the money for a good security force for you. payback is a bitch
LikeLiked by 2 people
Catalonia seems united in their dislike of Madrid and Rajoy (not a surprise)… but we don’t know what they are for instead. Now that they have “won” their revolution / rebellion, the hard work of governing the new country will begin.
This is why Trump should not endorse Catalonia (nor condemn it). We don’t know what it is going to be — its not clear the Catalonians know themselves.
Rajoy is a thug, and a huge liability for the EU (there are problems for the EU whether they endorse Rajoy or condemn him — either way the EU loses). Hopefully Spain gets a new leader, but the damage to the EU is done.
Meanwhile, Catalonia is a huge giant question mark. Jumping to conclusions and supporting Catalonia, when Catalonia can’t define themselves, would be a huge mistake for Trump or PM May (or any leader). Let Catalonia define themselves (without interference) before saying anything.
That doesn’t mean we can’t all condemn Rajoy for his Soviet style crackdown. It just means we have to wait and see on Catalonia.
LikeLiked by 1 person
If you want to understand Spanish nationalist reasoning it is very simple, and reajusts the understanding of the whole picture. Obviously no-one who is not nationalist will understand this, but I put it down anyway, in order of priority :
1. There will be no secession, Spain is a single nation.
2. Anyone trying to secede knows this ( and they do know this point of view).
3. By attempting to secede therefore, knowing that it will not be allowed, they know that Spain will punish them for trying and for causing disorder.
4. Therefore they are responsible for Spain’s actions, they litterally asked for them.
So it is a matter of national pride, and they could not care less what anyone else outside thinks they know, or how right they feel they are. They also consider the existing constitution as a very fair compromise on the part of their nation, so if people err outside of it then the gloves come off, to martial law if need be.
So the “clever people” who think they can manipulate Spain had better think again, no matter how much influence they think they have, unless they want to be responsible for civil conflict and military exception. Rajoy is by no means “the worst”, he is no saint, he is a lawyer strongly grounded in national hierarchy, in a clan based party reality.
If he is “overthrown”, then more extreme elements will make themselves known. Roughly a third of the country is strongly nationalist, a third “republican”, and the rest whatever.
So before anyone thinks to dally in Spain’s circumstance, they should keep the above in mind, as it really is not a game. It is obviously not a game for many Catalans either. Hence the difficulty.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Rajoy is a thug, and it doesn’t matter if he was a “lawyer” before that. Being a lawyer proves nothing. He is still a thug.
I was not trying to understand the Spanish “nationalists” (are they the ones subjugating themselves to Brussels?).
My point was and still is that we know nothing about the Catalonians. From quotes in international newspapers, some of them are clearly socialists. That will end in economic suffering no matter what excuse they try to give. Always has, and this time won’t be different. Other Catalonians apparently are against sending resources to the capitulators in Madrid (and Brussels). A large number don’t seem to have any plan at all.
I can’t be “for” that, mostly because there is nothing to be for or against.
But I can’t support a bunch of spineless weasels who appease whatever dictats are handed down from Brussels. And if the “nationalists” (who kneel before Brussels) are willing to beat up their fellow Spaniards, they aren’t worth supporting.
Are a bunch of old ladies trying to vote a threat? How strong can Spain be if old ladies are mortal threats? And then they mow down a line of firemen who try to protect an unarmed crowd? Seriously?
LikeLiked by 1 person
I only said he was not the worst, no more.
When Spain was having its yields spike and ZP was in the hot seat, and everyone is wtf to do, I was hoping he would choose out of Euro, it was the only way I could see a return to some decent order. He chose not, went for compliance and gimmicks , failure and he was out.
Now Rajoy is in the same hot seat. He is thinking that Spain has levelled economically, is tying big deals, under the rug is another day, he has brought some discipline to society ( by force of law), that Cataluña is out of line, that he is grounded by the constitution to reclaim the territory ZP exchanged for power, that he can fuse an outcome by law and by force, including his EU associations.
And again I am thinking :
The only real way out of this is to bring back national monetary control, to balance power that way, not by the force of the constitution, that if he does not start from a sound national basis he cannot succeed in the way hoped for. Instead Spain will be played and weakened, one way or the other, still having to go by compromise in the EU “market” of finance and politics. Maybe he sees that as acceptable, to a greater future that is a compromise, but he is imagining if he does not think one day an “alien” politics will not act to completely disassemble anything that resembles the Spain he believes in, undemocratically and against the ability of the Spanish to counter that. Maybe a standoff with EU now will be the catalyst, or maybe it will turn very miserable, or maybe it will become another “acceptable” sell out where everyone “wins” . Who is to say.
LikeLiked by 2 people
It’s not just Spain……..every country that is associated with the EU.
“an “alien” politics will not act to completely disassemble anything that resembles the Spain he believes in, undemocratically and against the ability of the Spanish to counter that.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
You say ” Now that they have “won” their revolution / rebellion, the hard work of governing the new country will begin.” Say what? This is surely only the beginning of a civil war, a war that I have my doubts that they can win by passive resistance.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The Balearic islands have close ties to Cataluña, they saw protests Sunday
https://www.eltemps.cat/article/2298/les-illes-contra-la-repressio-a-catalunya
While an experienced German lawyer states that “without doubt Cataluña would not (even) leave EU if it seceded”
https://www.eltemps.cat/article/2287/kosovo-catalunya-continuaria-europa
LikeLiked by 2 people
& money will still go to Spain if Catalonia iapd pays to the EU but via another layer skimming some off.
Alternatively Catalonia receives EU funds that are partly from reduced payments to others or the UK exit bill.
Business as usual.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I wonder, in our interconnected world, whether the rights of states are becoming less relevant. Originally the rise of states protected and brought individual human rights to the fore – especially in western societies. Today states and the institutions once trusted have become progressively more corrupt and captured by vested power plays, maybe its time for civil society to reorganize and exert the authority of conservative governance models like the old guilds and local councils where people directly affected by change can have a say.
LikeLiked by 1 person
A form of localism, smaller groups and societies.
The further our species moves from our development background the more stressed we and our groupings become.
We developed in tight knit smaller communities etc. etc. and where everyone had a role. Role (meaning) is very important and in overly large groupings where labour is commoditised or replaced meaning suffers and so do people and social cohesion.
In where we developed from lies some indication of where we would be best heading to improve our societal and individual well being.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Spanish debt is 750M euros, how much does Catalonia owe upon exit?
LikeLiked by 1 person
The same amount of what someone else signed for, that you “owe.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
Well in that case why doesn’t every Spanish state break out into independent countries and wipe out the entire debt? QED.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes, indeed, why do they not? And ditto for US states.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajoy is no different than any other head of state in any other Western “democracy”.
He has just had the misfortune to have shown his true colors before any of the others.
They are ALL the same, as the people will soon find out – the hard way.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajoy is part of the George Soros sponsored EU “super state” — hardly a democracy. No one voted for anyone in Brussels, there were no elections.
Europe is not a democracy, nor even a republic. Its a dictatorship in drag
LikeLiked by 2 people
He is part of that, but he is also part of Spanish nationalist direction . If he messes up with either he is out.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Spanish “nationalists” who subjugate themselves to Brussels?
The more you try to explain this, the worse it sounds.
LikeLiked by 1 person
He works with Spanish nationalist identity that de facto exists in the country, he is tied in loyalty to it. He is also compromised at EU level.
Spanish nationalists have utter contempt for EU, barely recognise it. Rajoy and the PP are tied into EUPP and his position in government takes him straight into EU framework of power. Not that hard to understand.
LikeLiked by 2 people
If you look at his dealings with EU, they have always been to at least maintain an impression of Spanish political independence… bailouts that weren’t bailouts etc. Exactly where he really stands? I think he is closer to Spain, and that he uses recourse to the constitution and law to emphasise that, as well as to shield or balance his nationalist actions at international level. Constitution does not make him a libertarian though….Spain has always swung quite hard from left to right and back… liberal centre is for miow miows. Left was always chaotic with the right reinstalling order. Post dictatorship constitution was best balanced so far till EU dug its claw. Late so tomorrow :-).
LikeLiked by 2 people
During WW2, most of Europe’s “Nationalists” voluntarily submitted to the Germans…. Contemporary Nationalism, like all progressive ideologies, is just smoke and mirror symbolism for “I’m Leader, Rule of Law and labor organizer; you shut up, submit and labor!” Siding with someone they perceive strong enough to help subjugate their own underlings, are par for the course for all of them.
LikeLiked by 1 person
So if you look at approval ratings, the Guardia Civil is highest (@60%), then well below is government, and Rajoy etc.
The country knows what the “fascist” right is ( I put fascist but mostly it is dictatorial) , they know what it means in real terms. It is a known, not only because they have experienced it, but because the rules of play are simple, familiar. If you “behave” you have nothing to fear and a lot to gain.
So you have this tension running through society, sometimes more background , sometimes up front, like in Cataluña. It is part of Spain’s axis.
Now imagine the political control of this goes off track ( corruption on all sides, cession of monetary control, increase in regional power, economic confusion etc. ). You end up with a country poised in confrontation, chaos. You have pseudo-legal bureaucracies set up, technocratic or progressive/socialists sitting in offices applying the pre-existing public force incompetently, maybe purposefully so to antagonise. They do not follow the traditional axis but use it…just as the traditional axis will sell or be publicly obliged to cede its position into some future modern Europeanised state.So you end up with some very bad circumstance, resentment resurfacing, you end up with people being disciplined by their own seemingly unfairly, under the control of those they disagree with traditionally, who over extend their power using the kind of socialist dictate that has appeared in our time. Before the opposing band was relatively harmless and disorganised, also familiar – the traditional Spanish left ( unions, PSOE) were workers and very simple/straightforward in their ways. Now it is become technocratic socialism, progressive, intelligence in power, the traditional band suppressed by the recent discipline installed by PP. Add to this the “American” left, as typified by Podemos, who are active at social level trying by all means to overthrow the right, and all of those being influenced by EU, and I think you will understand that the picture is very difficult…and I have only included the most obvious base influences in that picture, it is much more complex still.
LikeLiked by 2 people
That last was @ Stuki
LikeLiked by 1 person
Oops…meaning just below…
LikeLiked by 1 person
Nationalist Spain had some ties with the Germans, the Catholic church also, ratlines were set up in Spain for example to S.America, or Guernica “target practice”, but Spain stayed neutral in the war2 … or did you not notice? It was a balancing act for the country, as others had to also.
LikeLiked by 2 people
“They are ALL the same”, is a slanderous generalization and thus an illogical argument.
It might be better to not slander people who have not acted badly. As, it does not spoil a good expectation and motivation to live up to those expectations.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Correction
As , it spoils the communication of a good expectation and motivation to live up to positive ethical expectations.
LikeLiked by 1 person
To be clear, breaking down the argument this way:
Incorrect statement: Rajoy is no different than any other head of state in any other Western “democracy”.
There fore: They are ALL the same,…
And, There fore: as the people will soon find out
But, in fact, Rajoy is different than other heads of state. That negates the conclusions made after the statement that was false. Rajoy speaks Spanish many others do not.
This was also, circular logic based on a statement that was false.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rajoy might be forced to resign soon.
LikeLiked by 1 person
And there for. might no longer be head of state!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Still, remember UK allowed referendum for scotland and referendum in EU membership, I’m not entirely sure how they treat Ireland’s independence aspiration however.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Next will be what does Rajoy do when Catalonia declares independence in the next few days? Will he send in the military like Franco did? Then comes the tough part – how does Catalunya actually implement secession with an intransigent Madrid. We see how hard Brexit is where they have not even got off the starting gates.
Who are the next to demand independence in Europe? The Basque, the Walloons??
LikeLiked by 1 person
King Philip will call for new elections pdq
LikeLiked by 1 person
If they stay in the EU there is no independance, only the immediate semblance.
LikeLiked by 1 person
If the US experienced another tragedy equivalent to 911 (or worse) most of the Spaniards would probably laugh at us. Most Americans I’ve spoken to who visited Spain were treated like dog squeeze. So I don’t know why I bother supporting either side. I guess I try to look at the situation objectively and take the politics out of it.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I have visited and worked in Spain several times. I just returned from Madrid a few days ago. I have always been treated politely. Spanish people are delightful to be around.
LikeLiked by 1 person
911 was not what it is made out to be, you know that by now, don’t you?
Nobody has any beef with the american people, almost everybody have problems with your government/military.
LikeLiked by 1 person
your comment proves you cannot be objective
LikeLiked by 1 person
Next is Texas!!!!!
😉
Sent from my iPhone
>
LikeLiked by 1 person
Naaah…we could solve a LOT of this Country’s problems if we keep Texas and help California succeed.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Oops….we want California to “secede”…..it’s already too late for it to succeed.
LikeLiked by 1 person
They should both secede. Along with the other states. Solves the Federal debt problem, amongst other things……
LikeLiked by 1 person
Good luck to a new Catalonia country! Down with Rajoy the terrible!!
LikeLiked by 1 person
The basis for a drive to independence needs moral and logical foundation. President Trump has taken the side of Spain and its leadership with remarks during WH visit, so clearly he believes such foundation does not exist. If Catalunya becomes truly independent, or even achieves the status of Quebec, is Trump once again on the wrong side of history? Conversely, if Catalunya has the moral high ground, then why not Texas, or California for that matter?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Why not Texas or California?
If they voted to leave I would not have a problem
LikeLiked by 1 person
“The basis for a drive to independence needs moral and logical foundation. President Trump has taken the side of …, so clearly he believes such foundation does not exist. ”
Eloquently said.
LikeLiked by 1 person
No doubt Rajoy’s inept and clumsy violent effort to suppress the vote resulted in a lot of backlash and only strengthened the vote for succession. On the other hand, I would warn the Catalonians to be careful what they wish for. They might get it, and it might not be what they were hoping for.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Mish, you need to add the letter ‘l’ to “word” to make it “world” in the title.
“Disgrace to Spain and the Word” should be “Disgrace to Spain and the World”.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thanks
No one else caught it
LikeLiked by 1 person
Becaue our mind read whet we knew it was gonig to say anywy.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Even though I expected this the headlines still churned my stomach. I didn’t watch the videos I’m pissed off enough as is.
LikeLiked by 1 person
You’re not alone.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I like your honesty. The wider implications are there for all to see.Deafening silence from the EU. The British could see it. The EU is naked fascism.
This is revolution. And about time!
Rajoy is a criminal.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Life is rich with ironies. Ironically the Germans run a pretty darn good economy. They have like 1500 small local banks that fund thousands of small and medium sized businesses. They avoid Minsky type credit bubbles by applying common sense valuations to collateral based on expected rents and cash flows. Their one blind spot is export markets. They literally can’t understand why everyone can’t run chronic trade surpluses like Germany does. You have to laugh until you cry at this.
Anyway, this is at the bottom of the Catalonia crisis, the Greek crisis, the Italian crisis, the Spanish crisis, and more. And so we are entering “Oh well”, mode. Strap in buckos, it’s gonna be a wild ride.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Peter, there’s a real push to reduce the number of banks in the EU. Not satisfied until they interfere with what works.
Yes, massive trade surplusses in the single market are a stressor.
Underneath that is a “German superiority” complex. Idle southerners lacking discipline etc. German discipline will influence all via control of the EU purse strings.
Taken to the extreme it will fracture the EU as money will have to flow out of surplus Germany to keep it together and the German worker/tax payer will notice – enter AfD stage right.
The potential combinations of outcome are complex but leaving the EU by Catalonia won’t be on the table. They won’t have the balls and EU/Germany won’t allow it.
Therefore – business as usual.
LikeLiked by 1 person
What I mean by “what works” are the smaller solvent banks.
Some others are the walking dead.
LikeLiked by 1 person
So, why doesn’t Germany demand something tangible rather euros or bonds in return for it’s trade?
Here are two observations from afar.
1. Many of those deficit countries have large coastlines to land area. In other words are peninsular and/or islands. And, warm weather and some times hot weather. Do road interconnections have any thing to do with it?
2. If you were in a country that had rapidly diluted currency and a new currency was offered even though low dilution was promised, many might still expect the same to happen. Those folks might still borrow heavily, due to their experience and expectations of the unknowable future to be simmer.
3. Does Germany produce much in other customer countries?
LikeLiked by 1 person
And, what do the successful poling places look like?:
Isn’t that an important part of this story that is under emphasised? Every one in a democracy should know how do this efficiently.
“Votar és la meva obligació i el meu dret”
http://www.ara.cat/videos/reportatges/Votar-meva-obligacio-dret_3_1879642038.html
http://www.ara.cat/videos/reportatges/mobilitzacio-collegi-electoral-Vic-minuts_3_1879642076.html
I think Gandhi would approve.
linked from:
http://www.ara.cat/politica/Guardia-Civil-carrega-Calella_3_1880241958.html
LikeLiked by 1 person
” 7h ago 00:31
The turnout was 42%, say Catalan officials. On Sunday afternoon, the Spanish interior ministry said police had closed 79 of the 2,315 polling stations set up for the referendum. Earlier,, the Catalan government had reported that, despite the police’s efforts, voting was taking place in 96% of polling stations.
”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live
LikeLiked by 1 person
All the false flag terror attacks, thug riot police brutality, political barfing in the world could not stop humans wanting their freedom in Catalonia. God speed, Catalans.
LikeLiked by 1 person
This is no clear at all for me, and very suspect. First because they want to be independent and free, but will remain in the european union. In the same time they claim that they are not spanish, but in every demonstration I see, their signs are in english : are they english or american ?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Think on.
EU army will lack critical mass for external deployment.
Internal deployment against dissent – yes – the purpose.
https://mobile.twitter.com/A_Liberty_Rebel/status/914619421062254592
Think on.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Settling refugees in Catalonia will help reduce fixed identity and calm this down. The next step by tptb that have been very quiet?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Simple “reversion to the mean” for Madrid. The Spanish Inquisition lasted almost a thousand years and extended to Latin America. But compared to modern day NATO, France, Saudis, the USA and their bombing of Serbia, Libya, Yemen, etc., Spain seems almost mellow and restrained in their partial vote suppression efforts in Catalonia. A PR disaster, yes, but Madrid government so far is weak peaceniks compared to USA. Would have been much worse if USA police were tasked similarly. Abe Lincoln and General Sherman would not have been so kind. But, who knows, maybe the real military crackdown is still in the future.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Whooo hooooo?
“Spanish PM says no vote took place in Catalonia”
http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/spanish-pm-says-no-vote-took-place-in-catalonia/article19783907.ece
LikeLiked by 1 person
So “the region has 5.3 million voters” and “90% of the 2.26 million Catalans who voted on Sunday voted in favour of independence”. That of course suggests that c. 3.266 million did not vote for independence – but we are to encourage the so-called “self-determination” of the minority anyway, and mainly because we are a bit squeamish about unexceptional police crowd control measures?
LikeLiked by 1 person
700,000+ thousand votes were stolen,
Madrid sent in thousands of goons to stop the vote and people still voted anyway
WFT about that do you fail to understand?
LikeLiked by 1 person
What I fail to understand is how the arithmetic is seen as compelling. 700,000 (alleged) votes x the same 90 per cent. in favour suggests an extra 630,000 votes to add to those cast in favour of 2,034,000 (90 per cent. of 2.26 million), thus giving a total of 2.664 million which is close enough to 50 per cent (50.26%) to suggest that given we are dealing with round numbers and estimates it is not a certain enough basis upon which to proceed. Add the actions of the “thousands of goons” that I speculate may have provoked some “no” voters to cast their votes the other way, and I really do struggle to understand your assurredness of view.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes votes cast / votes cast
No votes cast / votes cast
I do not think electoral votes use registered voters as the numerator in calculating results of votes?
Make sure you go to the poles.
LikeLiked by 1 person
But in this case the electorate were told voting was illegal and they should not participate. It is not unreasonable given the circumstances of this referendum to suppose that very many of the “no” voters stayed away from the polls. The circumstances in which the referendum took place were seriously enough flawed to suggest its apparent result is not a sound basis from which to proceed to usher in very substantial and likely irreversible change.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“But in this case the electorate were told voting was illegal and they should not participate. It is not unreasonable given the circumstances of this referendum to suppose that very many of the “no” voters stayed away from the polls.”
That is an interesting and good point.
But, what about this? Rajoy appeared to be deterring of more no voters than yes voters, and converting no votes to yes votes! The yes votors less likely to be deterred. Additionally magnifying the yes vote, by convincing people leaning to a no vote to change their mind, with twice the effect! Minus one no and plus a yes is a difference of 2 (yes-no=1-(-1)=2). Thus, giving a result opposite to Rajoy’s alleged goals.
Does Rajoy get to complain about that? Interfering with a pole is illegal, amongst the other crimes.
Don’t eat candy. Don’t drink beer. Don’t drink coffee. Don’t admire that beautiful person. Sex is frowned upon. … Don’t be democratic. Don’t express you opinion. Don’t vote! Hah!
Why would Rajoy and Spain have helped out the yes vote in such an official manner? Why?
It was reported that 97% of the poles were open and the vote was 90% yes. That means to me most of the poles were clear, 97% of them! If one went to a closed pole one could be welcomed to an other one.
If you search you can find videos of clear peaceful poles some were posted here. The turn out was better than US turn outs’ which are usually < or = 30%. I think it was near 50%?
If it was fair, I think this was one of the most successful poles and land slides in history. It had lots of advertising.
For logical arguments, attacking the person rather than the argument is considered an illogical and false argument.* The voters appeared to be attacked in the press but not really on the whole, as 97% of the poles were open, according the a UK paper. I guess most voters were not attacked.
*That is known as “fallacy of logic.” That can be looked up to learn about it it is a valuable branch of philosophy.
LikeLiked by 1 person
First and third video posted by me below show open poles. One pole open in the first video at 5 minutes and 25 seconds. And, the first two poles are open in the third video.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Please resign before you are booted out.
—————
Personally, I would much prefer to see him booted out, which for millions of Spaniards (not just Catalans) might be something cathartic process.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Everyone should take this into consideration. This might be a planned game.
http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2017/10/catalan-independence-5-things-to-think.html#more
LikeLiked by 1 person
@ 5 minutes : 27 seconds to 6m:12ss something good seems to happen.
“Spain Catalonia Mayor requires President to renounce democracy rocked #CataloniaReferendum ”
GIve that person an interview!
LikeLiked by 1 person
An other one! Watch the lady too.
LikeLiked by 1 person
More from their town:
LikeLiked by 1 person
THE BIG QUESTION IS WILL PUERTO RICO OR HAWAI ORGANIZE A REFERENDUM
AND BECOME INDEPENDANT FROM THE USA AND WASHINGTON
WILL CALIFORNIA TAXPAYERS BE WILLING TO PAY EVER MORE TAXES TO FINANCE NYC AND WASHINGTON
WILL FLORIDA ASK TO BECOME INDEPENDANT OR MERGE WITH CUBA STATE AND SO ON I AM KIDDING YOU AS IT IS AS NONSENSE AS CATALONIA POLITICAL STANCE
YOIU GET THE POINT ?
LikeLiked by 1 person
If Puerto Rico, Texas or California voted to leave I would not object
So you have no point
LikeLiked by 1 person
When is the next vote in Scotland?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Soon!
Calls for one in England too.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Reblogged this on John Barleycorn and commented:
I fully agree with you on this one.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Respect the wishes of those you govern or violence and misery will rule the day.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’m reading through Puigdemont’s parlament address as it goes on now… seems to be backing off immediate declaration of independence, no parlament tomorrow but general strike. He is calling for mediation… think that means EU.
Meanwhile Spain is discussing what next too in congress.
LikeLiked by 1 person
It would truly be something, if he puled a Tsipras, and just backed off everything in exchange for some loans……
LikeLiked by 1 person
The only loans he is likely to find are if he creates a new country…
LikeLiked by 1 person
And, and this is the bad part: Agrees to shake down his newfound underlings, in order to make them “pay back” loans taken out, signed for and, as always, summarily wasted; by the same hacks from Madrid they just managed to escape from.
LikeLiked by 1 person
A ten day strike starts tomorrow in Cataluña, protests are now aimed at calling for police withdrawal.
Independence seems pushed into a higher arena but not declared, while Spain considers what action it will take next.
Seems like Catalan govern will try to stretch Spain to max without making a clear target of itself.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Although
https://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/ultima-hora/el-ultimatum-de-puigdemont-o-mediacion-internacional-o-dui_90656_102.html
views it that 48hr limit before declaration is still acknowledged, that Puigdemont is asking Spain to accept EU mediation or else declaration will take place.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Junker meeting with Rajoy this PM.
Probably for a discussion over a drink.
LikeLiked by 1 person
To remind Rajoy of Spain’s financial circumstance probably, and how EU is above confrontations of this nature.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Small update… Rajoy says he will not confront the question of what to do of Cataluña until 10 Oct. , for whatever reason.
People are sort of guessing what next… some saying independence 48 hrs after result officially declared (when official?) … some saying 72 hrs from today… Puigdemont saying it is not just a button to push and achieve, mediation necessary….
So it is open, but there are strikes planned from tomorrow… and there will be political moves taking place somewhere or other.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The leaders of Catalonia should have had a game plan prior to this. Just because you declare independence does not mean you are a member of the Eurozone. Like Greece, the EU can just cut off international trade in Euros with banks in Catalonia. Which, in fact, are Spanish banks, not Catalonian banks.
You can’t become independent without having your own currency and a plan to make it work for your population. If you attempt to simply declare your independence, you will be crushed. And become a total fool to your population.
All Spain has to do is declare a freeze on the access of Catalonians to their money in Spanish banks. Catalonia will crumble just like Greece.
LikeLiked by 1 person
First business of the day must be to stop tax remittances to Madrid. Keep the money in Catalonia. For hiring local police and a local security apparatus with less confused loyalty, as well as keep critical infrastructure running. If those aren’t handled locally, you’re not really independent.
Spanish banks freezing deposits, should be met with invalidating all loans to Spanish banks. Ditto for EU countries’ banks following suit. Like anywhere else on planet earth by now, there’s no shortage of bankers locally, who could quickly handle what banking is needed.
As for currency to tax in, just pick one. Gold would be ideal, but Euro, Dollar, Sterling, Yen, Pesos or Swiss Francs would work too. Heck, even Bitcoin, although that may be a bit on the risky side.
As long as the Catalans can produce something of value, they’ll find someone willing to trade them some convertible currency in exchange for it.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Now with the Las Vegas shooting what’s going down in Catalonia won’t even be a blip on the radar screen in North America.
It was barely a blip even before the shooting.
Monday Night Football is only a few hours away.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Well the comment by “Sound and Fury” yesterday sometime about marines hitting pumpkins at 1 km and anyone being able to learn that comes to mind…twilight zone.
LikeLiked by 1 person
They look like storm troopers! Has anyone mentioned that yet?
LikeLiked by 1 person
In Spain protesters have the tradition of chanting the imperial march theme when riot police appear.
LikeLiked by 2 people
He needs to go, no doubt.
Also questioning why Catalonia can’t exist on its own. If they stay in the EU I don’t see how they lose out on trade. They might even save money by not having to contribute to a military budget. With Spain on one side and France on the other, they may be able to get away with a basic police force.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Mish, are you saying Catalonia should be allowed to have independence ? If so, what is the principle you are using to determine this ? Could you articulate it ? Thanks in advance.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Right of self-determination
I do not care for their leftist policies – but who am I to decide
LikeLiked by 1 person
Can California secede?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Why not?
LikeLiked by 1 person
I hope so……and would (at least temporarily) move there to vote YES !!
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think there is a really great story here. How was 97% pole stations open and an overwhelming vote achieved with interference going on?
LikeLiked by 1 person
When pushed to the wall expect The Establisment to fight back. (‘Kumbaya’ is a fantasy; jackboots are real.)
LikeLiked by 1 person
Part of the US once voted for independence, and became a separate country.
The US wasnt very tolerant of it then, and wouldnt be now either. You DO NOT have right to anything you want, unless you are able to aquire it via force. Period.
They dont have the right to vote for independence, and even if do have no way to aquire it without the force to do so.
Dont overlay some democratic ideal that doesnt exist over reality. There is no self determination. Which is why we protect the 2nd amendment vigorously here. Intelligent people are willing to die to keep the right to bear arms agains their own goverment.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Look up right in the dictionary. Look at the multiple meanings related to the word!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Detailed overview:
LikeLiked by 1 person
Government is violence,
LikeLiked by 1 person
Spain’s tourism industry is likely to take a hit. Caribbean, Spain, Mexico, Japan, Puerto Rico, Florida, it’s late in the season for Alaska. Looks like it’s time for a stay-cation.
I hold the cops who are “just following orders” as much to blame.
LikeLiked by 1 person